[Itsamoto]

Ok - almost the last of the engine component comparisons. I'm eager to start piecing things back together.

Picked up some new, OEM timing chain guides from my local dealership. After looking at online suppliers -- this worked out to be about the same price for the 5 components when I factored in shipping, duty and exchange rates. I'm not exactly thrilled to spend approximately $200 CDN for what amounts to 5 pieces of plastic (OEM chains would have been another $125-150 CDN). 

New Parts




In the comparison of the timing guides - all showed chain contact wear - channels/grooves in the plastic. With the guides from the good BDF - the channels are usually visible, tight/straight, but barely/faintly perceptable by touch. Lucille's (AXF) upper guides were always the worst condition - grooves showed a lot of lateral play and wear on guide - making the depth of groove hard to perceive. The AXF's lower guides were generally in better shape -- deep grooves but straight. The other garbage BDF's guides were almost always nice and straight, with deep pronounced grooves. I tried to use my callipers to get some more empirical data, but it's not the right tool.

Chains

From Top-Bottom: Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF

Chains -- by my eyeball and comparison were all very much the same length. I used a calliper in spots (such as the space between pins) and the results were consistently even on all the chains. One interesting note here -- is you can see that the upper chains from both the BDFs have some coloured links in them (to help count 16 rollers?) -- where as the AXF does not. I'm trying to determine if Lucille's had the chains done at all -- this could be a clue that it has. HAs  anybody else had a coloured chain link from their AXF?

Upper Right Guides

From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF


From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF


From L-R: Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF

Top Left Guide

From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF

Top Guide

From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF

One thing I noticed with all this -- the disproportionate cost of the small upper guide. For it's size and complexity, it was considerably more expensive. I also noticed that this item is not always carried by the typical online suppliers -- and the reason why is that VW doesn't make this part or the cam phaser assembly. 

Lower Tensioner/Guide

From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
Here you can see Lucille's AXF guide which snapped when I tried to loosen the the intermediate sprocket retaining bolt.

Lower Chain Guide

From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF

Here you can see the guide from the Good BDF snapped -- these are very brittle -- and three of the used guides had at least a hairline crack in them along the back. Sorry no decent picture of this.

Intermediate Sprockets

From L-R: Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF


Close up of Bad AXF sprocket wear.

All showed about the same amount of wear on the bigger sprocket that connects to the lower chain. This makes me think that the lower tensioner works very well -- steadily applying pressure to the chain.  Where as the smaller sprocket from Lucille's AXF showed a lot of wear. The AXF also has the stiffest upper tensioner bolt -- which I think allowed more chain play -- and hence greater wear on the upper components.

[Itsamoto]

Cam Phaser Module - you ask? Yes, if you noticed that cam phasers and the upper timing guide had a unique name stamped on to them: Hydraulik Ring. If you google it, eventually you will come to Hilite International's page here: http://www.hilite.com/products/engine-products/camphaser-modules.html    Good to know -- as this could help others find a replacement for the delicate cam phaser oil filter screen, or even a cheaper source for the upper chain guide.

Anyhow I pulled the cam phasers off of the engines -- I was just too curious about the screen condition. Something that probably everyone should at least check if they are deep into a timing chain job. Note, I also looked at the MK4 Jetta/Golf Bentley at this -- and the four bolts that hold the cam phaser housing on to the head are not stretch bolts. In some diagrams - they are referenced as "always replace" and in others there is no mention. The stretch bolts here are the ones that go through the cam phaser hub/sprocket and connect to the camshafts -- and then the large bolt that secures the intermediate sprockets.

Anyhow, the pictures...

Good BDF

Clean! 

Bad AXF




Busted screen. I later found small pieces of the screen inside the control valves.

Ugly BDF

Filled with metal shards - but intact! 

Is this good evidence that sludge is what busts through the screen on these? That filter mesh is so fine -- I could see it reaching a point where it is so full of sludge that the incoming oil pressure just blows itself through the screen.

FWIW - I also compared the cam phaser sprockets. There was evidence of wear - but generally all very even and nothing like the AXF intermediate sprocket.

[albertr]

Great pictures! That metal screen behind cam housing - I just removed it and run my AXK without it. I'm not really sure why they ever try to filter the motor oil supplied to cam adjusters...

-albertr

[albertr]

Your AXK pictures pretty much resemble these of my AXK. The original AXK upper chain in my engine was made by "Sasch" and didn't have colored links. The replacement I put in was made by "Iwis" and had colored links. The upper chain intermediate sprocket in my AXK showed about the same wear as yours but it was on  the opposite side 

Your pictures make me think that there's something wrong with AXK engines - whether it's an unusual tilting angle or longer oil pump intake or something else... autopsy reveals that they just look noticeably worse comparing to BDF's... based on Cole's AXK, yours AXK and mine - they all are badly sludged and had problems with metal screen behind cam housing. I don't think it's coincidence.   

-albertr

[Itsamoto]

Cam Phaser Module - you ask? Yes, if you noticed that cam phasers and the upper timing guide had a unique name stamped on to them: Hydraulik Ring. If you google it, eventually you will come to Hilite International's page here: http://www.hilite.com/products/engine-products/camphaser-modules.html    Good to know -- as this could help others find a replacement for the delicate cam phaser oil filter screen, or even a cheaper source for the upper chain guide.

Well I tried contacting Hilite -- pretty typical response.

Thank you for your inquiry dt. June 19, 2015.
 
However we have to inform you, that we can only supply to our OEM’s, because we have special contracts with them, which do not allow us to deliver parts to third parties.
 
Thank you for your understanding.
 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards
Birgit Geiger
Vertrieb Marktheidenfeld / Sales Administration
 
Hilite Germany GmbH
10/SM
Am Schlossfeld 5
97828 Marktheidenfeld
Deutschland
 

[Itsamoto]

Your AXK pictures pretty much resemble these of my AXK. The original AXK upper chain in my engine was made by "Sasch" and didn't have colored links. The replacement I put in was made by "Iwis" and had colored links. The upper chain intermediate sprocket in my AXK showed about the same wear as yours but it was on  the opposite side 

Your pictures make me think that there's something wrong with AXK engines - whether it's an unusual tilting angle or longer oil pump intake or something else... autopsy reveals that they just look noticeably worse comparing to BDF's... based on Cole's AXK, yours AXK and mine - they all are badly sludged and had problems with metal screen behind cam housing. I don't think it's coincidence.   

-albertr

Yes -- all the upper chains were Sachs and the bottom ones Iwis. This makes me suspect that Lucille's chains may have been the original then. I had no information on the service history from the previous owner - he noted that the transmission was rebuilt at @110k -- right before he bought it. So I was hedging that the chains/guides would have been done at that time - but maybe not, maybe they are original.

In just looking at the block -- I don't think that any coolant comes to the rear of the block -- unless there is a channel in there that I'm overlooking. Anybody have information on the coolant routing inside the engine?

[Itsamoto]

Been a while since an update - no time to work on the van and still waiting on a few parts to trickle in. That being said, there is something interesting to note here when I did the timing chain guide replacement (and kept using my "good" chains).

On the BDF chains, I noticed that there were some coloured links, one bright yellow and two that were much more subtle. Well I played a hunch and fiddled around a bit and ended up lining up the faded yellow chain links to the the cam phaser timing marks... and what do  you know, exactly 16 roller chain pins between the timing marks (which is bang on per Bentley)!



And then, the bright yellow link -- that lines up perfectly with the notched mark on the intermediate sprocket. 







 

[Itsamoto]

I'm still trying to make a decision on whether or not to use Lucille's ancillary/auxiliary components -- or to switch over to using the BDF components. The question really isn't about which to use, but rather what pulley system to use. The components themselves are identical or interchangeable save for the pulley system.

The big factor at the moment is the crank dampener pulley on my good BDF engine. I haven't figured a way to rig up a method for getting this off -- with the engine on stand you can't use the quick "start" method to breaker-bar the main 27mm bolt free. I need a 46mm wrench to counter hold the dampener to loosen the bolt -- but the job looks like a special tool is needed. Either the VW tool 3406 -- or an angled 46mm wrench is going to be needed. I can get a  46mm socket and maybe shave it down enough for through access and it to be side clamped with a big pipe wrench.

Here's a photo linked to from Boraspec's VR6 build on the vortex:

VW TOOL 3406

[Itsamoto]

The main difference between the pulley systems is one of pulley width (6 rib on BDF vs 7 rib AXF) and offset from the block.

Here you can (barely) see from Lucille's AXF, how much the crank pulley is offset from the block (there is about a 1cm difference between in comparison).

Crank pulley offset comparison

Bad AXF


Good BDF

That 1cm offset is maintained for just about all the pulleys -- save for the AC compressor (whose position is offset by the ancillary components bracket).

Ancillary Brackets

L-R: BDF bracket, AXF bracket

The AXF bracket stacks the aux components (alternator, ac compressor and power steering pump) in a more vertically compact way to accommodate the van's engine tilt. I'm not sure if using the BDF's bracket would be too big of a problem (for spacing) -- but it could leave the PS pump and hoses in a much lower, and much more exposed position.

I'd like to move to the AXF bracket - but as this offsets the spacing of the aux components differently - it means a full pulley system conversion is also required. Staying with the BDF bracket also presents some interference to the intake manifold -- so some filing down is needed.

Tensioners

L-R: BDF tensioner, AXF tensioner

Another good thing of sticking with the AXF aux components -- is the belt tensioner. The offset and pulley size issue is also a factor here -- but the sheer spring size is much larger and that is somewhat reassuring as to the "heavier-duty" design of this compared to the BDF tensioner. Not sure if either are plagued with failures - but there are posts on the Vortex that suggest the BDF tensioner does fail after a while.

[albertr]

Nice review, Itsamoto!  While you are looking at the ancillary components bracket, can you possibly make a few more pictures of it? I haven't had mine out for a while and trying to recall how it sits on the crankcase.

I'm trying to fit a high output alternator to my 2001 EVC which would require going with a smaller size alternator pulley in order to increase alternator's RPM's. Since EVC uses a double-sided belt and it's only available in one length I'm looking to find a way to move  A/C compressor further away from to belt tentioner. That would allow to use the same belt with a smaller alternator pulley and still maintain its tention. Maybe it would be possible to fabricate some spacer to go between crankcase and ancillary components bracket? Any thought?

-albertr

[Itsamoto]

Nice review, Itsamoto!  While you are looking at the ancillary components bracket, can you possibly make a few more pictures of it? I haven't had mine out for a while and trying to recall how it sits on the crankcase.

I'm trying to fit a high output alternator to my 2001 EVC which would require going with a smaller size alternator pulley in order to increase alternator's RPM's. Since EVC uses a double-sided belt and it's only available in one length I'm looking to find a way to move  A/C compressor further away from to belt tentioner. That would allow to use the same belt with a smaller alternator pulley and still maintain its tention. Maybe it would be possible to fabricate some spacer to go between crankcase and ancillary components bracket? Any thought?

-albertr

Thanks -- I can certainly get some picks of the bracket and how it's mocked up.

On the BDF, each ancillary component connects to the bracket independent of each other. Where as with the AXF -- the alternator piggy-backs off of a mount that is added onto the AC compressor. I will try and get you some pics to illustrate this. You could probably space the the alternator out further with a creative solution -- but that bracket would need to be reinforced.

Here's some alternator info that I've been looking at with Lucille. One of the advantages of staying with the BDF components, is that the alternator is equipped with an clutch pulley - as opposed to the standard pulley on the AXF's. Just from casual research, it seems the clutch pulley not only helps maintain the life of the alternator (reducing the harshness of speed changes) - but also quiets and smooths out belt vibrations.

Alternators

L-R: BDF with clutch pulley, AXF with standard pulley

Clutch Pulley

There is also a removable cover for these that keeps the inside nice and clean.

Pulley Offset

Top-Bottom: AXF, BDF

Offset and pulley size are still a factor here -- but if anybody is putting in a new alternator, I think finding a Eurovan compatible clutch pulley is a must. Lots of stories of alternator failure with the EV -- even Lucille is on (at least) her second alternator.



One thing from the Bentley in regards to alternator sizing -- there is a fusible link in the engine bay that should be verified before upsizing over a 120A alternator. Seen here in this picture -- the 175A fuse on the far right.

Alternator Fusible Link



Hopefully somebody can find an EV compatible Liten OAD pulley. Worth a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EXYP1CmL9Q

[Itsamoto]

Ok as requested...

Here is a few more pics of the AXF ancillary/aux bracket. From the bench - so just imagine this rotated clockwise 115 degrees. 

AXF Bracket


Mocked Component Setup

AXF Alternator, BDF AC compressor and PS pump

Here is the big difference between otherwise identicle AC compressors -- the AXF's has a third mounting handle with an extension to piggy back the alternator. This is the extension back on the top that the alternator is attached to.

AXF AC Compressor

Top: special bracket for alternator attachment

[albertr]

Itsamoto, thanks! Can you possibly make a few more pictures of the AXF bracket from different angles? I'm trying to see how does it attach to the crankcase. Basically, I'm trying to see if it would be possible to fab some spacer to go between the bracket and the crankcase for purpose to put alternator further away from the belt tentioner, something like the following picture (I borrowed one of your pictures for this illustration):



-albertr

[Itsamoto]

More notes and pics of ancillary bracket -- mounted.

The version for 24v uses 5 bolts - - the tops are M8x60, with two M8x28 and one M8x25 at the bottom. From my Bentley - which only covers the 12v AES - the bracket nearly the same except for extra mounting using a M8x60 bolt.  The BDF bracket is much more consistent - using just M8x30 and M8x28.

You can see how much thicker top of the AXF bracket is - but laying it flat on the table I would say that all the mounts are in the same plane -- so if you space it off the block, perhaps you should be spacing all 5 mounting points by the same amount.

AXF Bracket

Mounted to good BDF


5 bolt positions


As seen from side

[albertr]

Itsamoto, thanks! That's extremely helpful! Based on these pictures, it looks like I don't even have to fab a special spacer for this bracket, probably can get away with using simple spacers on mounting bolts.... Looks very encouraging, I'll start looking into high-output alternators scene again.

Thanks again!
-albertr