[Phaeton]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7322129-touareg-3-2-to-replace-2-8l
I saw this thread where a few people were talking about engine swaps, some even posting swaps with the Porsche Cayenne engine. Would the 3.2L or 3.6L fit?

Would swapping for the Cayenne engine then allow using the Cayenne 6 speed automatic? Wouldn't that increase reliability and performance? It seems like an engine and transmission swap would be a better idea than servicing the 4 speed automatic.

[Itsamoto]

Would swapping for the Cayenne engine then allow using the Cayenne 6 speed automatic?

No, its thats an inline application -- the Eurovan is transverse.

[Phaeton]

I need a little bit of clarification.
1. Is it that the engine will fit, but the transmission won't?
2. Will the transmission fit but the engine won't?

Is the 2.8L VR6 is best engine that we can put in a T4?

[Itsamoto]

The 3.2 engine will fit, but the transmission won't.

The 3.2 has been fitted to a Eurovan -- and last I checked the van is still for sale in the Seattle area. The 3.6 - I don't know about.

[Phaeton]

Itsamoto,

Thanks for answering my questions.

So if a 3.2L will work - any chance of a 3.0T or 3.0TDI?

Its kind of a bummer that the best automatic for this car is the 4 speed.

[Cole]

Itsamoto,

Thanks for answering my questions.

So if a 3.2L will work - any chance of a 3.0T or 3.0TDI?

Its kind of a bummer that the best automatic for this car is the 4 speed.

I put a ton of research into this when I swapped my first every Eurovan 24V VR6 out.

The conclusion I came to was that you could use the 3.2L block with the 2.8L 24V head from the Eurovan using custom head studs (available). This would give you the ability to use all the stock intake components.

You would want to scale the size of the injectors up slightly for the added displacement. The computer will take care of the rest. (it will have no idea there is an extra 400cc of displacement).

The big issue I found at the time was simply the cost of the Touareg and Cayenne Engines. People seem to think they are made of unobtainium even though they are the least desirable in those platforms.

As for the 3.0T or 3.0TDI the answer is NO. The engines in the Eurovan are "VR6" engine not "V6" engines.

This illustration shows the fundamental difference. The VR6 is basically just an inline engine with a slight "v" offset. It uses one head. Where a V motor uses two. So the V6 engines take up substantially more space, which the Eurovan just doesn't have much of.




As you can see from the picture. An inline 4 cyl is typically as long as the VR6 but narrower. So engines like the 1.8T, 2.0T, 1.9TDI will fit in the Eurovan chassis. Just need to swap out the transmission for one that bolts up to those engines (if you have a VR6 van now)

[Phaeton]

Cole, thanks for the visual; I'm still learning about this stuff so it helped.

But you said a 2.0T would work so that's quite exciting to hear. So does this mean the 6 speed DSG could work in the EV? 2.0T would also mean inexpensive power upgrades.

[Phaeton]

So I've a contacted a local shop dealing with VW swaps.

Given that a major engine service is due (cost of more than $7k), and the transmission is expensive (at least $5k) - I'm looking towards putting in a 2.0T EA888 from a 2009+ VW MKV/MKVI and replacing the VR6 - opening up many tuning options. Ideally, this would also allow me to transplant a built DSG gearbox - giving me 2 extra gears. However, the DSG isn't trouble free either with stories of mechatronics failures in earlier units. The article puts me at slight ease though: http://shopdap.com/the-vw-and-audi-dsg-transmission-reliability-longevity-and-more/

The potential cost scares me - because of all the potential things that could go wrong, but it can't possibly be much worse than dealing with Eurovan parts. Downside: the VW dealer can't help me with my problems any longer.

[Itsamoto]

So I've a contacted a local shop dealing with VW swaps.

Given that a major engine service is due (cost of more than $7k), and the transmission is expensive (at least $5k) - I'm looking towards putting in a 2.0T EA888 from a 2009+ VW MKV/MKVI and replacing the VR6 - opening up many tuning options. Ideally, this would also allow me to transplant a built DSG gearbox - giving me 2 extra gears. However, the DSG isn't trouble free either with stories of mechatronics failures in earlier units. The article puts me at slight ease though: http://shopdap.com/the-vw-and-audi-dsg-transmission-reliability-longevity-and-more/

The potential cost scares me - because of all the potential things that could go wrong, but it can't possibly be much worse than dealing with Eurovan parts. Downside: the VW dealer can't help me with my problems any longer.

A $7k engine service better include a brand new crate engine.

[Phaeton]

A $7k engine service better include a brand new crate engine.

I wish.

That would be the valve cover gasket, timing chain service (guides, tensioner, etc). I called two other shops and the pricing was similar. Looking around the web it doesn't seem like my experience is anything extraordinary.

I'm just wondering if doing a swap is a bad idea.

EDIT: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7844593-2001-Eurovan-engine-swap
This is my thread - and based on the reply it makes me think this is impossible.

[Itsamoto]

I wish.

That would be the valve cover gasket, timing chain service (guides, tensioner, etc). I called two other shops and the pricing was similar. Looking around the web it doesn't seem like my experience is anything extraordinary.

I know if you tally up the individual prices to do a full rebuild, you are not far off from a new engine - but there is no way that should cost that much. I suggest that you call around and get timing chain quotes by telling them you have a 2003 GTI instead. Sounds like another case of somebody wanting to rip off a naive eurovan owner.

I'm just wondering if doing a swap is a bad idea.

EDIT: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7844593-2001-Eurovan-engine-swap
This is my thread - and based on the reply it makes me think this is impossible.

If EricD says it can't be done - you'd best believe it. I don't really understand your rational behind this swap anyhow. Do you think that paying a bit more for an off the board swap is going to save you from paying for major engine service or is this meant as performance enhancement? Either way, I'm pretty sure whatever engine you put in there will need service as well -- and so you're just digging a bigger hole.

The VR6 is a great engine -- other than going to a tdi, or to a 1.8t with a manual transmission -- I really don't see much reason to change it out.

[Phaeton]

I know if you tally up the individual prices to do a full rebuild, you are not far off from a new engine - but there is no way that should cost that much. I suggest that you call around and get timing chain quotes by telling them you have a 2003 GTI instead. Sounds like another case of somebody wanting to rip off a naive eurovan owner.

Well they aren't wrong, I am quite naïve! I guess I could try calling them and telling them I have an '03 GTI, but I'd feel weird about telling them I have a GTI then popping in with a van.

If EricD says it can't be done - you'd best believe it. I don't really understand your rational behind this swap anyhow. Do you think that paying a bit more for an off the board swap is going to save you from paying for major engine service or is this meant as performance enhancement? Either way, I'm pretty sure whatever engine you put in there will need service as well -- and so you're just digging a bigger hole.

The VR6 is a great engine -- other than going to a tdi, or to a 1.8t with a manual transmission -- I really don't see much reason to change it out.

Well, having exchanged some PMs with Eric, it seems like the real problem is that I wanted to swap in a DSG. The engine swap itself doesn't seem to be the impossible part. I figured that if I'm going to be spending big dollars - I'd want to at least investigate if its possible to do a reliable swap of some sort. The 2.0T TSI has a few advantages over the VR6 - better fuel economy, lighter, more power, quite a bit more power with a cheap tune. He's also sent me a forum post where someone has installed a DSG with a 1.8T (MKIV gen, I believe). I don't think this is an impossible swap with the right person doing it.

The main reason I was looking into the engine swap - was because I thought it would allow me to move away from the 4 speed automatic currently installed. Obviously I don't have enough information yet - which is why I am asking questions and figuring out what is possible and what isn't.

[Itsamoto]

Sorry Phae - I didn't mean that as a dig on you, although I now see it can be read that way. Please accept my apologies.

What I should have related to you is that I have had that experience of talking to independent VW tuner/shops whose eyes light up with dollar signs just because I was in a Eurovan -- even though its not that different from other VWs. Either they don't want the work, or they don't know the job well enough.   

Now the reason why I suggested you get quotes on a 2003 GTI  -- its something else with the same 24v VR6. The parts for the timing chain/tensioners are the same, the valve cover gaskets are the same. Getting to the engine might be an hour more work (tops) than in a Golf/Jetta - but after that the job is the same. When they quote that job at $1500-2000 and the Eurovan at $7k - that is not fair at all.

[Phaeton]

I understand the reason for telling them I have an '03 GTI with a VR6 - its just I'm not sure how to negotiate a lower price for the van after finding out how much cheaper it is for the GTI.

EDIT: Regarding the swap - I'll keep looking into options - I'm still hopeful for a 2.0T or 1.8T (Gen 3) swap. I just think I'll have to be paired with a manual. I'd like to find out if the 2004-2006 T5 6 speed tiptronic would work in a T4.

[Itsamoto]

I understand the reason for telling them I have an '03 GTI with a VR6 - its just I'm not sure how to negotiate a lower price for the van after finding out how much cheaper it is for the GTI.

The onus is on them to justify this cost. You're doing them a favour by bringing your business to them, not the other way around.