CaveVan Forum
Pictures and tall tales!! => Show off your projects here! => Topic started by: Itsamoto on May 28, 2015, 09:10:59 pm
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(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8810/17963468039_82633e6a80_b.jpg)
So this is certainly an adventure and the biggest car project that I have bitten off -- converting my 02 EVW to 5-spd manual using the elusive 02G-AFL transmission. I have fielded a few inquiries as to how this was going and I thought I might start a small thread here to chronicle things as the project gets started. I've been sitting on the parts for over a year -- and finally have the right window to start working on the van. I will certainly get to the details of this, but I just want to start with an intro of sorts.
For years I sat on the sidelines, looking at Vanagons/Dokas and waiting for the "New Microbus" concept to come to fruition. With onset of children and the necessity of a people-hauler, it was actually Cole's original thread that inspired me to go Eurovan -- and specifically look at 24v-VR6 models. Once I saw the front end off the van -- I realized it was no more difficult to work on than any of the other VWs I've owned (all water cooled). Owning something built in this century is a little bit reasuring to my wife, whom I wouldn't want behind the wheel of "classic" car anyways (with concerns of safety, reliability, etc). I don't want to get into the pissing war of Vanagon vs Eurovan - clearly each has merits/detractions. However, I do believe that most people neglect to see how the Eurovan was actually a rebirth for the vw-van platform -- even Volkswagen itself likens the T4's succession of the rear-engine design to that of the Golf replacing the Beetle.
I've owned a good half dozen VW's leading up to the decision, so I was not alarmed to read that there are "some issues" with the model that scare others away. I figure almost all cars have issues -- what sets VW's apart (IMHO) is the dedicated enthusiasts who share their knowledge and impart wisdoms that build user communities. What did keep me a little hesitant - were the automatic trans repair stories - whether or not they are overblown - I don't know. I have never been keen on automatic transmissions -- so I was always thinking of swapping transmissions from the get go. Be it a mTDI or something else - I was dead set on changing it.
Now even though I'm in Canada (land of funky Eurovans) -- there is a noticeable shortage of long-nose vans and they are impossible to find. I passed on the opportunity to buy a local one owner, ultra-ultra-low mileage 02 EVW in my province -- but the price was close to $30k! I realized I couldn't stomach spending that much on something I would being looking to convert to a manual and started to look stateside for a good deal. In a whirlwind week of van shopping in Vancouver and Seattle - looking at 12 vans - I was lucky enough to find "Lucille" a Tornado Red EVW owned by van/bus enthusiast.
The moment I first saw "Lucille" drive across the parking lot -- I was smitten. In hindsight, and knowing her the way I do now -- I can safely say that she looked good from a far... Still, I was convinced of her potential -- and the lowest price 24v-VR6 EVW I had seen in while. Highway mileage at 225k and two owners - with some rust starting on the rocker panel, some banged up interior pieces. The right community-vibe from the owner sealed the deal. He loves vans and took pride in the EV (while also owning himself a Syncro-High-top) and had gotten Lucille ready to keep before deciding to sell -- putting on new 215/70/16 BFG ATs, Blistein HDs, a Yakima rack, an ARB awning, Pioneer double-din dvd player. To me it was good value on the extras . When I agreed to keep the van named "Lucille" he took another $500 off. Handshake, done deal. :)
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Nice van
Nice first post.. i definitely want to see how you make out with this swap! Plz.take lots of pics
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I'm in! ;D
I've been meaning to figure out how to convert these with domestically available parts. Just not enough time in the day for everything!
My one hesitation with the true VR6 manual that only came behind the 12v is that it's so rare and hard to find.mif you ever break it you could be SOL for a long time while sourcing a replacement.
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I'm in! ;D
I've been meaning to figure out how to convert these with domestically available parts. Just not enough time in the day for everything!
My one hesitation with the true VR6 manual that only came behind the 12v is that it's so rare and hard to find.mif you ever break it you could be SOL for a long time while sourcing a replacement.
Definitely want to see how this goes. I went with a 95 because it came with the manual but the extra HP of a 24v VR6 would be fun.
Cole,
That is why you buy a spare when you get a chance and put it in a tote. This is also away to almost guarantee that the one you have will never fail.
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This is going to be good. :-) Mine would probably still be VR6 (it's TDI now) if I could have found a good solution for the transmission! I'm excited to watch this.
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Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I'm excited to get this rolling too -- but I know it will take some time. I'll do my best to post some pictures of the process and the important details.
@Cole -- Agree with the concern that something this rare can lead to downtime. I've already run into this with a couple of items that I want to replace (and make things as new as possible) - so patience, research and more patience is definitely required. Interestingly though, there are many parts for the swap in North America. I guess the plans were for these manual VR6s to be here back 97 - and the plug was pulled last second. The nice thing about keeping it "stock" (with an upgraded engine comparatively) -- is that there is no surprises, no special engineering required. I bumped that thread on the Samba regarding the 1.8t conversion -- but this way easier.
@Trbogn -- The pull on the van seems very good -- although I have not properly compared it to a 5cyl van. I know from my trips from Alberta to Vancouver (along the Coquihalla Highway) that the van can really rip it up hills much to the surprise of other camper-vans out there. ;D
And yes -- spares (for everyone) are in my mind and in the plans. ;)
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Good deal... I've been thinking about this for a few months now
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My lucky find happened just over a year ago. I was searching for components to do a TDI swap -- and I landed at the Quality German Parts webpage. There, nestled in among the diesel engine components, was a little section devoted to Eurovans. Within it -- a very rare, somewhat rusty - AFL transmission conversion "kit". The parts included the transmission, clutch, shift linkage, pedal set, starter, and axles all for $3k. I thought that was a fair deal cheaper than rebuilding the automatic (not that is a problem - but I had budgeted for it), so I immediately called and sealed the deal. Items were shipped up to Montana, where I went and picked them up and brought them back to Canada. I didn't heed the advice to play dumb at the border -- being an honest schmuck -- and paid the extra 10% import duty.
For those interested in Quality German, there is some good stuff there now -- 1.9td engines and even a 2.5tdi and I believe a rusty syncro setup as well. Just be sure that you call Thomas to discuss things as he is not keen on email inquiries and won't respond timely unless you have made the effort to establish contact with them first. Very busy I guess.
So the parts -- most of them were pretty grimy, with some rust and even some damage. But they are used goods -- so not totally surprised. Thomas said that the items had about 150-175k km on them.
02G-AFL Transmission
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8851/18215353572_3183b81fd2_b.jpg)
Lots of dirt on this - I'm still cleaning it!
Shift Linkage or Schaltgestänge
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8874/18305489942_96725c65a3_b.jpg)
FYI: This is not the same shift linkage as that found on early Eurovans - although they share components. On this Reverse is found below 5th.
Pedal set
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8874/18123253559_d360566ac7_b.jpg)
This is a set from an early manual T4/Eurovan. The 24v and 2.5tdi vans use a potentiometer on the accelerator pedal. Fortunately - they share the same base plate and you swap the pedals over.
Axles
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/280/18369373146_3cf881d7c6_b.jpg)
These were pretty rusty -- but I sense that this is normal for used axles. Either way, while I'm in there I plan on replacing these with new ones - although its nice to have them on hand for reference.
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With Lucille's high mileage (225k miles @ purchase) -- there was some consideration that the engine would probably need an overhaul in the near future. I quickly found signs of an oil/fluid leak. Little drips off the driver side. Little drips off the passenger side. It eluded me for a long time -- because the leaks were happening in multiple places. There were some evap flow codes that I assume were a leak in the pvc tube by evidence of the electrical tape fixes. Chains were getting noisy, lots of oil and sludge in places. So - it was time to hunt for a second engine. I figure having two would allow me the time to learn about rebuilding the engine - or sourcing it out without pressure.
It seems like doing a complete rebuild on a 24v vr6 costs almost the same as buying a new crate engine. Still - I could not afford either option and I looked for used BDF code engines (found on Mk4 Jettas/Golfs). My second lucky find -- a low mileage 2003 Jetta GLI (130k km or ~80k miles) for $500 CDN (that's ~$400 USD)! A 100 miles away -- sitting with a broken axle, torn up front rim/wheel, busted transmission case and tear through the oil pan. The owner had run up a ice bank and was ready to move on. The engine looked clean inside and I picked it up and towed it home on a dolly. :D
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/387/17784910633_d7ea83a60f_b.jpg)
I have an 2002 Jetta 2.0 as well that I am the original owner - -but it sadly needed some TLC. The GLI nicely fit the bill for a series of upgrades to that car and I transplanted a 3pt leather steering wheel, a full leather interior (nice high bolster, heated seats), replaced a broken side mirror, replaced a rusted front fender panel, trunk, hood, OEM monster mats, aftermarket headlights, and window regulator clips! Whew!
Then I parted out the following:
Hood (from 2.0) - $50
Magnaflow Muffler w/tips - $50
Downpipes and cat - $60
Rear Bumper - $60
Taillights - $30
Wiper Linkage - Goodwill
Radio - $10
Cup Holders - $10
Passenger mirror - $5
I found a replacement rim for the one that was damaged -- and now I still have a nice set of 17" rims to sell or put on one of my Mk4s. :)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8774/18397508046_de5e499d43_b.jpg)
UPDATE: I managed to sell the rims for $400! Minus the $50 I paid for the 4th wheel, that officially puts me into the "black" with my Jetta purchase. :D
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For the van -- I kept the engine and its accessories - and set aside the ECU, engine wiring harness and the manifolds.
I was going sell off the accessories, but its actually pretty nice to have an extra AC compressor, 120A alternator and power steering pump. All are similar to the Eurovan's -- save for the pully. The EV pullys are offset about 1 cm , and are slightly wider too when compared to the BDF. Wider pully and belt. This also goes for the crank pully and water pump. I like the idea of the extra clearance -- but may stick with the BDF parts -- they are in better condition.
The transaxle with the Jetta was 02M 6spd for VR6. I took it out with the engine and compared it to the 02G (Eurovan) and an 02A (mk3 VR6) out of interest. Wish I took some better pics for this...
Transaxle Comparison
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8814/18433414745_0172b234ab_b.jpg)
From left to right: 02A, 02G-AFL, 02M
The 02A is much smaller in comparison -- with the differential being about half the size of the other's. If you look at the bolt pattern for mounting -- you can see there is section with a flat/straight edge to it. This is the "top" of the transaxle in normal mounting -- this would align to the top most bolt holes on the engine block -- just below the thermostat housing. So you can see the degree of offset is quite substantial for the 02G-AFL -- compensating for the way the van's engine is rolled forward (15 degrees?).
So if you want to mount a Mk4 transaxle to your van -- the engine rolling forward actually would raise the output shaft. So do this - probably would adjust the engine mounting position -- more vertical and lower to align the output shaft better. Or you can wait for me to get you an 02G-AFL-X. ; )
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I've been considering trying to fit that manual transmission in one of these by doing exactly what you describe. Lowering the back of the engine to make it sit more level. May require exhaust work. Drop that 02M in the mail to me ;-)
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I've been considering trying to fit that manual transmission in one of these by doing exactly what you describe. Lowering the back of the engine to make it sit more level. May require exhaust work. Drop that 02M in the mail to me ;-)
Sorry -I thought I offered to you before and you didn't want it! Plus I already flipped it for this:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7731/18430195292_4f6a19e42f_c.jpg)
But, yes - it would be a real puzzle for sure. I think getting the engine angle determined would be the easy part -- the hard part might be figuring out how everything else in there shuffles around. You may have to go to a jetta/golf intake (flatter) -- but it draws are from the opposite side of the engine bay.
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No worries ;D
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This is looking good, as for the axles, one of them you can reuse I think it is the right one, basicly this tranny uses two identical axles on both sides and one of the auto tranny axles will work... Also I was looking at the pedal cluster and I think all you need to do is swap the brake and add the clutch pedal, you don't have to swap the whole thing... Let's keep this going, my tranny will be here next week, can't wait! :)
Also those rusty ABS rings can be removed, if you need a new replacement ones let me know I can get them pretty cheap. Unless you want to go with new axles, but from what I was told you can't get OEM anymore, only chinese replacements are at the dealers now :-\
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Are you putting a new clutch setup or the used one that came with your kit?
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This is going to be good. :-) Mine would probably still be VR6 (it's TDI now) if I could have found a good solution for the transmission! I'm excited to watch this.
How did you get yourself a TDI? -- that is awesome. Please share.
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This is looking good, as for the axles, one of them you can reuse I think it is the right one, basicly this tranny uses two identical axles on both sides and one of the auto tranny axles will work... Also I was looking at the pedal cluster and I think all you need to do is swap the brake and add the clutch pedal, you don't have to swap the whole thing... Let's keep this going, my tranny will be here next week, can't wait! :)
Also those rusty ABS rings can be removed, if you need a new replacement ones let me know I can get them pretty cheap. Unless you want to go with new axles, but from what I was told you can't get OEM anymore, only chinese replacements are at the dealers now :-\
Congrats on finding a trans! I know you've done a few conversions already - can't wait to see your results. Good advice on those parts.
As for the axles - in comparison with the ones from the automatic - - one is the same length, but the bolt patterns are different enough that I thought it won't work. I will look at it again - thanks.
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I swapped in a TDI from a '97 Passat. Went to manual transmission at the same time.
We didn't have any problems but I didn't like driving around with a timebomb transmission AND I just plain like manuals better. The VR6 was nice though, if we could have went manual I probably would have done that. Less work for sure and I'd still get to shift! The impossible part for me was finding the parts to do it.
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Are you putting a new clutch setup or the used one that came with your kit?
This is a problem I haven't solved yet. From what I've gathered, the clutch that I got in my kit doesn't have much life left in it. The clutch disc is fairly worn, and there is a crack in the pressure plate. While I'm there - I really should be replacing these things... better now while its all apart, rather than later. This is a real oddball clutch though - it's 219mm. I've sourced a replacement (disc, pressure plate and TO bearing) -- here in NA for close to $375 CDN shipped. Or, conversely I can order one from the UK for about $300 CDN shipped.
02G kit clutch Condition
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/272/18326360749_37f82e180c_b.jpg)
Hairline crack in pressure plate -- usually a sign of heat stress.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/280/18326363739_15b59d2420_b.jpg)
Worn out disc.
What I'd really like to do is see if I can use another clutch assembly altogether. The 02G-AFL has a 22mm diameter input shaft, which I believe is the same as MK3/Corrado/Passat VR6s. So I'm leaning on finding something from those cars -- perhaps a 228mm disc that will work with some parts I have on hand? From my collection of BDF engines, I actually have one clutch set that is in very good condition. The disc won't work, as it's for the larger 24mm diameter input shaft -- but the flywheel looks good -- just not sure if the pressure plate will fit inside the bell-housing without rubbing. The overall dimensions are very close -- its the taper of the pressure plate. If I could use these parts and just add a disc that works that would be cheaper and more readily available option.
Advice? Should I just bolt it up with the 02M clutch assembly and crank the engine by hand to see if there is any rubbing?
Clutch Comparison
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/529/18508134542_77f4a6ac8e_b.jpg)
Left -- 02G 219 mm clutch, Right --228mm clutch from the 02M
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/355/18508158032_08bb99072b_b.jpg)
Side view
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I am pretty sure the bolt pattern on the axles is the same but I won't know until my parts get here... As for the clutch setup I have a brand new pressure plate with clutch disc I got off Ebay some time ago, it is 219mm but I would love to get a new dual mass flywheel or find a single mass that will fit... We might be able to use the 228mm 24V VR6 flywheel in there according to some post on UK forums...I can get a whole new setup, dual mass, pressure plate and clutch disc for around $800 but it is not cheap... On the other hand not sure I want to reuse the old parts...
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I am pretty sure the bolt pattern on the axles is the same but I won't know until my parts get here... As for the clutch setup I have a brand new pressure plate with clutch disc I got off Ebay some time ago, it is 219mm but I would love to get a new dual mass flywheel or find a single mass that will fit... We might be able to use the 228mm 24V VR6 flywheel in there according to some post on UK forums...I can get a whole new setup, dual mass, pressure plate and clutch disc for around $800 but it is not cheap... On the other hand not sure I want to reuse the old parts...
The axles I have are different from the automatic. Outer CV is the same -- but the inner CV is smaller (~4.25" dia vs 5"). My inner CVs are also missing the star-shaped cover pieces - but this seems to be the same size as MK4 - so again I will complete them with this.
A MK4 clutch disc won't work -- the input shaft diameter is off from the 02G - which needs a 22mm (mk3 size). If you want, I have a spare 228 240mm flywheel and pressure plate -- you are welcome to them for the cost of shipping.
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Here's a positive/promising development on the clutch choice.
According to Aggie's post (http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=98605&page=5) on the T4forum -- there was a 240mm clutch for some of the diesel 02G users.
AXG,AHY DMF part number 074105266L
" " clutch pressure plate 074141025L
" " clutch friction plate 074141032D
This just happens to look an awful lot like the two clutches and flywheels that I got along with my BDFs -- which I mistook for being just run of the mill 228mm. :)
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Here's a positive/promising development on the clutch choice.
According to Aggie's post (http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=98605&page=5) on the T4forum -- there was a 240mm clutch for some of the diesel 02G users.
AXG,AHY DMF part number 074105266L
" " clutch pressure plate 074141025L
" " clutch friction plate 074141032D
This just happens to look an awful lot like the two clutches and flywheels that I got along with my BDFs -- which I mistook for being just run of the mill 228mm. :)
Back to square one - >:( - I missed a little asterix that denoted that the 02G did change input and output shafts with certain Tdi engines. I'm betting that was to fit that 240mm clutch! Where as north american sources note input shaft differences as 22mm and 24mm -- european sources seem to reference the number of splines 28 vs 23.
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(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/426/18211481490_24a72cc977_b.jpg)
While I was parting out the Jetta -- my failure to properly diagnose Lucille's oil leak caught up with me. In hindsight, I believe that I made the cardinal mistake of adding too much oil -- trying to compensate for a slow leak and nurse some more time out of Lucille. Usually I would ad about 1/4 of a quart, every couple of weeks -- but I think I misread a leak from the transmission and added a full quart to the engine. Dumb. She made it to 250k miles - which was my original goal.
Anyhow, on one frigid winter day - after warming the car for about 20 minutes - the dreaded low oil pressure light came on. Luckily I was about 25 ft from my garage - and so I quickly parked the van and got out to see what I can only describe as a waterfall of oil seeping out. :o
I thought for sure that the head gasket must have blown -as the oil seepage was basically 3ft wide as it poured down. I parked Lucille until things thawed enough for me to look into the leak. Turns out - the oil leak was actually from a small point -- and oil leaked first into the lower engine cover (the big oil diaper as somebody else once described it) - and that created the illusion that the leak was actually much worse than it really was.
Here is what it was:
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7732/18399193115_cb60080757_b.jpg)
Plastic oil filter cover! I think these are brittle things - but also I have to take some of the blame here for putting too much oil in it.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/493/18070248744_f8e0c0feca_z.jpg)
It absolutely disintegrated on removal -- and luckily I had just acquired a spare and was able to get things together enough to get Lucille in the garage. Perhaps a billet oil filter cover is worth it.
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With Lucille in the garage - I opened things up and saw that there was actually a lot of problems under the hood that were contributing to my oil leaks. From this picture you can see the power steering fluid reservoir is a mess (as is the pump) -- and oil all along the SAI pressure hose (running down the left side of the engine).
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/430/18505357930_0fbb1d5550_b.jpg)
Then there are some tell-tale signs of extra oil in the system (dipstick tube and the oil filler tube). :-[ In my defence, the front of the oil filler tube was black from the moment I owned her. I wiped it down after seeing on Cole's thread that his had a white stripe on it. :D
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/466/18695707751_dbd4e4dd4e_z.jpg)
The crankcase breather hose was riddled with cracks - but not enough to prevent oil from accumulating in the intake hose, and dribbling back to the MAF
sensor (which was installed upside down!) and leaking out from there.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/264/18507142149_468b2e7b0f_z.jpg)
The real big oil leak - the one that I had been chasing around actually wasn't from the engine, but rather the transmission.
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If you are seeing a motor oil pushed from crankcase into the intake manifold, I would check vapor screen (mesh metal net) located on top of the valve cover just below ventilation line (you will need to pull out intake manifold and valve cover to get to it). It can get clogged with sludge from accumulated carbon deposits.
-albertr
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If you are seeing a motor oil pushed from crankcase into the intake manifold, I would check vapor screen (mesh metal net) located on top of the valve cover just below ventilation line (you will need to pull out intake manifold and valve cover to get to it). It can get clogged with sludge from accumulated carbon deposits.
-albertr
Good call. I have taken a long look comparing Lucille's engine with the low mileage BDF replacement. They are night day in terms of oil sludge and coke.
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Pulled Lucille's engine out to replace it with the low mileage BDF that I got from the Jetta. The most daunting thing is the wiring and miles of hoses in there. I can really understand why people like to "delete" things with these engines - if just to makes things more manageable. I can look forward to losing a couple of coolant hoses without the transmission cooler -- but I may go for more deletes (SAI, EGR) along the way.
Engine Removed
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/525/18808069951_ba4ab29527_b.jpg)
Brittle Plastic Hoses
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/411/18600569908_b62f78a662_z.jpg)
Things went ok -- I only wrecked a few things along the way. I damaged the passenger side motor mount (leaked fluid), a couple of terminal connections and breather hose that totally disintegrated. ;)
I took my time while removing the wiring harness and tried to label things along the way. The nice thing is the harness can all be disconnected and moved out of the way -- basically all to the drivers side. A lot of the labels have fallen off -- but I think the electrical actually is pretty straight forward to put back - because most of the connections are different or the length of the harness does not permit you to mix up certain plugs. We'll see. :D
After that I then disconnected the air intake and the accessories -- alternator, AC compressor, power steering pump -- to leave the lines intact. Before putting the van up - I broke the main axles bolts free. Once everything was ready - I went back in and removed the drives shafts. Nice way to get to know the suspension (and see all the little things there that need to be fixed).
Lucille's Engine & Trans out
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/347/18619300019_62bab51a75_z.jpg)
The biggest pain in removal was with the exhaust manifold -- that took me a whole day to get it off. When I pulled the engine from the Jetta -- everything came off easy. On the van - I tried everything I could - but it was very tough. There is one bolt the exhaust manifold that is impossible to work on as the manifold swings out over top of it and there is no room to get it off. I have no tool or ability to reach it properly. I tried cutting it off while in the van - but I just couldn't get to it. Eventually I got myself a long extension and layed under the van and loosened off the downpipes. It took some prying to get them to seperate off the manifold.
Stubborn Exhaust Manifold
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/306/18617770920_9843af4eba_b.jpg)
Notice the small bolt -- bottom side of the driver side exhaust manifold. Also, this side of the engine block was really ugly - bubbling paint, rust, another oil leak, etc.
The fussy electrical connectors, brittle pipes and some hard to reach bolts are the worst of it -- really not that bad if you are taking the engine and transmission out together.
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So, with the low mileage BDF engine I pulled from the Jetta, and a pooched BDF that I traded the Jetta's bad trans for, and now Lucille's AXK engine out -- I have three 24v VR6 to play with. 8) Each has their strengths and purpose. I like to refer to the them as: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/316/18790993221_54c01e153c_b.jpg)
From Left: Good BDF, Bad AXK from Lucille, Ugly BDF (junk parts)
The Good
Code BDF, Mileage ~80k (131k km), documented synthetic oil history, original chains/guides.
Outstanding issues: Torn oil pan, leaky thermostat housing, blown/missing plug
Silver lining: Pristine oil condition
Summary: Enthusiast owned and pampered.
The Bad
Code AXK/AMV?, Mileage 250k (~400k km), undocumented oil history, second set of chains/guides with 140k miles of wear.
Outstanding issues: Oil sludge throughout. >:(
Silver lining: Possible back up engine after a thorough cleaning/rebuild.
Summary: A well traveled engine -- but not as well cared for as it could have been.
The Ugly
Code BDF, Mileage ~108k (175k km), undocumented oil history
Outstanding issues: Blown block, thrown rod, bent valves, broken lifter, etc. :P
Silver lining: Aluminum water pipe!
Summary: Tuner owned/serviced - turbo'd and driven hard till the day she died.
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In pictures:
The Good BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/461/18165660874_9f9c5f779c_z.jpg)
Condition when pulled. Shown with 240mm DMF.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/545/18792351615_c7bb8321c3_c.jpg)
After cleaning up coolant leak mess/crud
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/353/18762173176_84fbbec348_z.jpg)
Oil pan tear/hole
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/459/18172085614_0b57ace00a_z.jpg)
Showing missing/blown plug along top/back of engine.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/460/18182553964_a67412aa7a_z.jpg)
Level of oil residue on cam/chain area.
The Bad AXK
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/539/18787338452_be7acb5a3e_z.jpg)
Evidence of coolant leak mess/crud
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/371/18606979830_4fc17a1e31_z.jpg)
Block condition - lots of peeling paint/rust on backside. Excessive heat/Moisture prone area?
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/548/18807742811_ea5250f358_z.jpg)
Level of oil residue on cam/chain area.
The Ugly BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/262/18165817754_8794e62190_z.jpg)
Aluminum crack pipe!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/353/18762124876_0c1bf3d73a_z.jpg)
Exhaust headers -- is this what happens when they run super hot?
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/328/18604612790_cf5e125cec_z.jpg)
Blown block.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/546/18802703185_b8f6731268_z.jpg)
Level of oil residue on cam/chain area.
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Great project!
Rusted exhaust manifolds was a problem on my 2001 EVC too. When was doing chains past winter, I was not able to remove them and had to move engine forward with downpipe still connected. Luckly, there was sufficient clearance to do that.
As far as rusting on the back side of the crankcase, my original 2001 AXK wasn't that bad. There was some rust, but nothing nearly as dramatic as seen on your pictures! There must be something leaking there in your engine that caused such severe rusting.
Why the plug was blown off in your "good" BDF? With cracked oil pan, I would be very cautious to inspect all internals to make sure it was not ran dry by his previous owner…
-albertr
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Great project!
Rusted exhaust manifolds was a problem on my 2001 EVC too. When was doing chains past winter, I was not able to remove them and had to move engine forward with downpipe still connected. Luckly, there was sufficient clearance to do that.
As far as rusting on the back side of the crankcase, my original 2001 AXK wasn't that bad. There was some rust, but nothing nearly as dramatic as seen on your pictures! There must be something leaking there in your engine that caused such severe rusting.
Why the plug was blown off in your "good" BDF? With cracked oil pan, I would be very cautious to inspect all internals to make sure it was not ran dry by his previous owner…
-albertr
Thanks Albertr -- I was really surprised as well when I saw the condition on the back of the block. The front had some bubbling paint - but nowhere nere what was on the back.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/505/18174043653_0635337e86_z.jpg)
The Bad AXK -- bubbling paint
As for the missing plug -- this enters the "air port" -- further along the same channel in the head where to which the combi-valve feeds. I'm hoping that it has just fallen/blown out - rather than getting sucked in. I have no clue why this could or would have happened. When an engine is installed -- this is somewhat out of sight and covered up by the exhaust manifold heat shield. Neither of the other two engines have this port "opened" on purpose - so I don't think its intentional.
I do have some concerns with the engine having run dry -- but I am not sure what to look for. The history of the donor Jetta was that it ran up an ice bank in the middle of winter (i.e. -40C). The force of impact broke the driver side axle and control arm, punctured the transmission case and bell housing, and ripped that gash in the oil pan. Both air bags deployed -- but I don't know if that triggers the engine to shut off. So a good bet that the car may have been run afterwards to warm the occupants for probably 45-60min. Not sure what to look for - but it turns over by hand very smooth - and the crank case has no evidence of oil starvation. Any suggestions?
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Good question... I'm not experienced in engine rebuilds, so not really sure. Maybe pull out oil pan and valve cover and look for any metal shavings or signs of metal particles in oil and on internal parts? Also, mesh net filter screen on oil pump intake, inspect it for any deposits? There's also some third party companies who can do chemical analysis of used motor oil, maybe send them a sample?
-albertr
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The difference in oil residue and condition is quite noticeable between the good BDF and Lucille's original AXF. I'm taking notes on this, and thought it might be interesting to share the findings from the 3 engines. If anything, it serves as good example of synthetic versus conventional oil.
Valve train/Cylinder head
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/444/18802458061_9b3db26b98_z.jpg)
Good BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/401/18612174320_4a9e531fb1_z.jpg)
Bad AXF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/436/18180090564_1bebc36c55_z.jpg)
Ugly BDF
Crankcase
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/492/18182996274_7d1b84931a_z.jpg)
Good BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/562/18617878000_75df2dded4_z.jpg)
Bad AXF
Valve Cover
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/394/18184981863_1c47fe5c76_b.jpg)
From L-R: Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
Here's a close up of the important detail -- found in the oil vapour filter mesh. Note that the filter on the AXF was so clogged and coked up that I had to adjust the exposure to get any sort of comparison.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/533/18184997133_f2e1e1d7c2_c.jpg)
Good BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/396/18617871228_8c319c4da6_c.jpg)
Bad AXF
Lower Chain Tensioner
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/262/18617971180_00450f8c6a_z.jpg)
Good BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/354/18619503269_b74d4cf42e_z.jpg)
Bad AXF
Timing Chain Cover
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/289/18185036693_008e48baea_b.jpg)
From L-R: Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
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Lucille's oil system components were totally coated in sludge and coke -- I've owned her for 20k miles of pure synthetic oil changed every 7k. Evidently, the idea that running synthetic can help clean sludge out is not evident here. ;)
More....
Oil Pan and Pump
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/376/18617816220_4d84c263f1_b.jpg)
From L-R: Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/515/18779274066_3fdd886b89_z.jpg)
Good BDF: Note the crack/hole in the pan (bottom right) and aluminum chips (~centre).
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/479/18779277116_4d31a214c9_z.jpg)
Bad AXF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/343/18805570635_0556a70b34_z.jpg)
Ugly BDF: Looks good in comparison.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/263/18182976264_a0eb9301c6_z.jpg)
Ugly BDF: Metal fragments!
Oil Pump
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/561/18808136171_e6e5353d4f_z.jpg)
Good BDF
This also nicely shows the difference in reach between the BDF and AXF oil pumps. FYI: there is a 3rd, shallower pump style used on some 3.2 VR6 -- about 0.75" shallower than the BDF's.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/462/18779281146_4f13812856_z.jpg)
Bad AXF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/265/18805594415_0e03107a66_z.jpg)
Ugly BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/396/18619421669_676252779e_z.jpg)
Ugly BDF -- Crunch!
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Great pictures! It's good to have multiple engines, make comparing and swapping parts much easier ::)
However, my 2001 AXK had even worse sludge issue comparing to your "bad" AXK, so your synthetic oil might have done some cleaning job afterall ;-)
Below please see some horror pics of mine. After chain replacement it still continues to run fine (I keep my fingers crossed ;D). Somebody (Cole perhaps?) was tossing idea that AXK sludge issues might be related to unusual mounting position on EuroVan (engine is tilted forward) which could attribute to oil starvation.
(http://iral.com/~albertr/EVC/sludge/IMG_3134.jpg)
(http://iral.com/~albertr/EVC/sludge/IMG_3145.jpg)
(http://iral.com/~albertr/EVC/sludge/IMG_3147.jpg)
(http://iral.com/~albertr/EVC/sludge/IMG_3714.jpg)
-albertr
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Don't read too much into sludge. It's not always a lack of maintenance that cause an engine to sludge up and a clean engine doesn't always mean it was well taken care of (matter of fact a higher mileage engine with a lack of sludge usually means somebody poured some miracle in a can cleaner in it). Higher operating temperatures stop and go driving, lots of short trips add to sludge build up every bit as fast as not changing the oil regularly.
Sludge is created by any number of factors, todays engines tend to be worse because of the higher compression ratios we're seeing and the higher oil temps both of which lead to faster break down of the oil.
if you're staying on top of oil changes, keeping it topped off, making sure the car is always running properly there's really not a lot more you can do to avoid sludge. It happens
Edit: I want to add another cause too many short trips where the engine never really gets up to operating temp. This allows moisture build up in the oil, creates foaming which in turn creates sludge
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Great pictures! It's good to have multiple engines, make comparing and swapping parts much easier ::)
However, my 2001 AXK had even worse sludge issue comparing to your "bad" AXK, so your synthetic oil might have done some cleaning job afterall ;-)
Below please see some horror pics of mine. After chain replacement it still continues to run fine (I keep my fingers crossed ;D). Somebody (Cole perhaps?) was tossing idea that AXK sludge issues might be related to unusual mounting position on EuroVan (engine is tilted forward) which could attribute to oil starvation.
-albertr
Yes your engine looked worse. How many miles what that at?
Having multiple engines to work with helps a lot. The AXK is actually just "ugly" with rust and the sludge. The second BDF is totally shot -- and basically I got it for (1) the crack pipe and (2) to just learn from messing around with it.
I don't know if the angle has anything to do with the sludging - I wouldn't rule it out. I do know that from all the VW's I've owned from the era in which the van was (circa 2002) -- that none of them were specified to use synthetic oil (when they probably should have). So, with my 2002 2.0 Jetta (I'm the original owner) - I switched to synthetic after 6 years of regular oil - and then switched back to conventional after it developed an oil leak. All good on that front. My 1.8t on the other hand - needs synthetic or it will coke up fast due to the heat of the turbo.
And I agree with Kjeff -- that regular oil changes before the oil breaks down probably does a lot to circumvent any buildups. But from here on out on the van's VR6 - its got to be synthetic from now on.
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Here is a quick example of a critical oil passage -- and it has to do with one of our favourite subjects -- timing chain!
So here you can see the upper timing chain cover --where there is a small oil passage that feeds the chain tensioner bolt.
Upper Timing Chain Cover
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/358/18805722865_68b55789b8_b.jpg)
And here on the tension bolt - is the oil inlet which not only takes in oil to lubricate the internal spring - but the oil is also needed to pressurize the tensioner to its final and correct tension! When this is installed correctly - the oil ports align. If this starts to clog up and restricted with sludge, then it seems very plausible that the chain is no longer tensioned correctly - thereby increasing the wear on timing chain components.
Timing Chain Tensioner
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/407/18618004110_e13b16b075_b.jpg)
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Yes your engine looked worse. How many miles what that at?
Having multiple engines to work with helps a lot. The AXK is actually just "ugly" with rust and the sludge. The second BDF is totally shot -- and basically I got it for (1) the crack pipe and (2) to just learn from messing around with it.
I don't know if the angle has anything to do with the sludging - I wouldn't rule it out. I do know that from all the VW's I've owned from the era in which the van was (circa 2002) -- that none of them were specified to use synthetic oil (when they probably should have). So, with my 2002 2.0 Jetta (I'm the original owner) - I switched to synthetic after 6 years of regular oil - and then switched back to conventional after it developed an oil leak. All good on that front. My 1.8t on the other hand - needs synthetic or it will coke up fast due to the heat of the turbo.
And I agree with Kjeff -- that regular oil changes before the oil breaks down probably does a lot to circumvent any buildups. But from here on out on the van's VR6 - its got to be synthetic from now on.
My AXK had 147K miles on it which were put by his previous owner. He used to go to Pep Boy's to do his oil changes ;D I guess that contributed to sludge issue somewhat... ;D
-albertr
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My AXK had 147K miles on it which were put by his previous owner. He used to go to Pep Boy's to do his oil changes ;D I guess that contributed to sludge issue somewhat... ;D
-albertr
I was reading up through the 24v Timing Chain (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5890626-Good-DIY-write-up-on-24v-timing-chain) thread that Cole started and I was re-reading through your contributions there. That was awesome work, if not incredibly thorough. Makes me grateful that I have the engine out to do this. ;)
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I was reading up through the 24v Timing Chain (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5890626-Good-DIY-write-up-on-24v-timing-chain) thread that Cole started and I was re-reading through your contributions there. That was awesome work, if not incredibly thorough. Makes me grateful that I have the engine out to do this. ;)
You'll also notice in that thread how sludged up that 24v AXK was with 152k on it and a lifetime of synthetic from the original owner.
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You'll also notice in that thread how sludged up that 24v AXK was with 152k on it and a lifetime of synthetic from the original owner.
Interesting. Do you think this is related to the tilt of the engine then --- building up more heat in areas or not getting properly supplied with oil? Or should we be looking at an external oil cooler?
One thing I noticed that is a bit different between the BDFs and the AXF - is the routing of the coolant lines. The AXF closes off using the center port off the block, where as the BDF's used that. The routing and positioning of the after run coolant pump is a bit different too. We need some thermal imaging here!
One other factor to consider, is the type/model of car that these engines were available in. 24v-vr6 BDF's were in GTI's and GLI's -- basically the top of the line MK4 Golf/Jetta. Perhaps new owners of these cars were more in "tune" with the needs/demands/maintenance of the engine than the average Eurovan owner was. Getting a 24v VR6 was an option/choice to those Mk4 owners -- where as with the Eurovan owner, it was their only choice. :D
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I'm curious about the tilt of the engine too.
That thread has stimulated at least a dozen people calling me to ask about that specific topic.
I'm no oil expert so all I can do is speculate on the causes. But there does seem to be a trend with the Eurovans not seen in the cars.
The Eurovan, especially the camper versions were/are expensive. So I'd imagine most people took care of them. The original owner of my black van from the original thread took great care of it. Yet it sludged.
I've noticed that the fans on a Eurovan run far more than any other car. So I image getting rid of the heat is a large prt of the issue. Might explain the flaking paint on the engine blocks (the one I removed was also flaked)
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I've noticed that the fans on a Eurovan run far more than any other car. So I image getting rid of the heat is a large prt of the issue. Might explain the flaking paint on the engine blocks (the one I removed was also flaked)
The downpipes in the Eurovan certainly run adjacent/parallel to the engine for much longer than the BDFs -- where the downpipes slant away (if that make sense) and have heat wrap around them. That would certainly account for some extra heat at the back the engine.
I will pursue shielding up the van's with a similar wrap.
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Ok - almost the last of the engine component comparisons. I'm eager to start piecing things back together.
Picked up some new, OEM timing chain guides from my local dealership. After looking at online suppliers -- this worked out to be about the same price for the 5 components when I factored in shipping, duty and exchange rates. I'm not exactly thrilled to spend approximately $200 CDN for what amounts to 5 pieces of plastic (OEM chains would have been another $125-150 CDN). >:(
New Parts
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/298/18843856090_153968d76b_z.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/467/18410910243_68fd93e603_z.jpg)
In the comparison of the timing guides - all showed chain contact wear - channels/grooves in the plastic. With the guides from the good BDF - the channels are usually visible, tight/straight, but barely/faintly perceptable by touch. Lucille's (AXF) upper guides were always the worst condition - grooves showed a lot of lateral play and wear on guide - making the depth of groove hard to perceive. The AXF's lower guides were generally in better shape -- deep grooves but straight. The other garbage BDF's guides were almost always nice and straight, with deep pronounced grooves. I tried to use my callipers to get some more empirical data, but it's not the right tool.
Chains
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/267/19005472466_c4319be890_c.jpg)
From Top-Bottom: Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
Chains -- by my eyeball and comparison were all very much the same length. I used a calliper in spots (such as the space between pins) and the results were consistently even on all the chains. One interesting note here -- is you can see that the upper chains from both the BDFs have some coloured links in them (to help count 16 rollers?) -- where as the AXF does not. I'm trying to determine if Lucille's had the chains done at all -- this could be a clue that it has. HAs anybody else had a coloured chain link from their AXF?
Upper Right Guides
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/354/18409090784_8ae9e030b6_b.jpg)
From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/488/18409086404_c246e4d554_z.jpg)
From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3748/19005395686_37bfd9d50e_c.jpg)
From L-R: Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
Top Left Guide
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/430/19005422706_9ea2798930_b.jpg)
From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
Top Guide
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/378/18843939710_f08dd2023e_z.jpg)
From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
One thing I noticed with all this -- the disproportionate cost of the small upper guide. For it's size and complexity, it was considerably more expensive. I also noticed that this item is not always carried by the typical online suppliers -- and the reason why is that VW doesn't make this part or the cam phaser assembly. :o
Lower Tensioner/Guide
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3768/18410996233_2eebfa01c8_b.jpg)
From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
Here you can see Lucille's AXF guide which snapped when I tried to loosen the the intermediate sprocket retaining bolt.
Lower Chain Guide
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/256/19026148072_d47c890c8b_c.jpg)
From L-R: New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
Here you can see the guide from the Good BDF snapped -- these are very brittle -- and three of the used guides had at least a hairline crack in them along the back. Sorry no decent picture of this.
Intermediate Sprockets
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3763/18845479789_66e60774d3_b.jpg)
From L-R: Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/262/19034803851_d485e7f12f_c.jpg)
Close up of Bad AXF sprocket wear.
All showed about the same amount of wear on the bigger sprocket that connects to the lower chain. This makes me think that the lower tensioner works very well -- steadily applying pressure to the chain. Where as the smaller sprocket from Lucille's AXF showed a lot of wear. The AXF also has the stiffest upper tensioner bolt -- which I think allowed more chain play -- and hence greater wear on the upper components.
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Cam Phaser Module - you ask? Yes, if you noticed that cam phasers and the upper timing guide had a unique name stamped on to them: Hydraulik Ring. If you google it, eventually you will come to Hilite International's page here: http://www.hilite.com/products/engine-products/camphaser-modules.html (http://www.hilite.com/products/engine-products/camphaser-modules.html) ;) Good to know -- as this could help others find a replacement for the delicate cam phaser oil filter screen, or even a cheaper source for the upper chain guide.
Anyhow I pulled the cam phasers off of the engines -- I was just too curious about the screen condition. Something that probably everyone should at least check if they are deep into a timing chain job. Note, I also looked at the MK4 Jetta/Golf Bentley at this -- and the four bolts that hold the cam phaser housing on to the head are not stretch bolts. In some diagrams - they are referenced as "always replace" and in others there is no mention. The stretch bolts here are the ones that go through the cam phaser hub/sprocket and connect to the camshafts -- and then the large bolt that secures the intermediate sprockets.
Anyhow, the pictures...
Good BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/415/18844049548_11a96fcf89_c.jpg)
Clean! :)
Bad AXF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/427/18845504159_1bd0cebb02_c.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/505/18411036973_22e2fed086_c.jpg)
Busted screen. I later found small pieces of the screen inside the control valves.
Ugly BDF
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/415/18843992750_b63cc6e073_c.jpg)
Filled with metal shards - but intact! :o
Is this good evidence that sludge is what busts through the screen on these? That filter mesh is so fine -- I could see it reaching a point where it is so full of sludge that the incoming oil pressure just blows itself through the screen.
FWIW - I also compared the cam phaser sprockets. There was evidence of wear - but generally all very even and nothing like the AXF intermediate sprocket.
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Great pictures! That metal screen behind cam housing - I just removed it and run my AXK without it. I'm not really sure why they ever try to filter the motor oil supplied to cam adjusters...
-albertr
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Your AXK pictures pretty much resemble these of my AXK. The original AXK upper chain in my engine was made by "Sasch" and didn't have colored links. The replacement I put in was made by "Iwis" and had colored links. The upper chain intermediate sprocket in my AXK showed about the same wear as yours but it was on the opposite side ;D
Your pictures make me think that there's something wrong with AXK engines - whether it's an unusual tilting angle or longer oil pump intake or something else... autopsy reveals that they just look noticeably worse comparing to BDF's... based on Cole's AXK, yours AXK and mine - they all are badly sludged and had problems with metal screen behind cam housing. I don't think it's coincidence.
-albertr
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Cam Phaser Module - you ask? Yes, if you noticed that cam phasers and the upper timing guide had a unique name stamped on to them: Hydraulik Ring. If you google it, eventually you will come to Hilite International's page here: http://www.hilite.com/products/engine-products/camphaser-modules.html (http://www.hilite.com/products/engine-products/camphaser-modules.html) ;) Good to know -- as this could help others find a replacement for the delicate cam phaser oil filter screen, or even a cheaper source for the upper chain guide.
Well I tried contacting Hilite -- pretty typical response.
Thank you for your inquiry dt. June 19, 2015.
However we have to inform you, that we can only supply to our OEM’s, because we have special contracts with them, which do not allow us to deliver parts to third parties.
Thank you for your understanding.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards
Birgit Geiger
Vertrieb Marktheidenfeld / Sales Administration
Hilite Germany GmbH
10/SM
Am Schlossfeld 5
97828 Marktheidenfeld
Deutschland
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Your AXK pictures pretty much resemble these of my AXK. The original AXK upper chain in my engine was made by "Sasch" and didn't have colored links. The replacement I put in was made by "Iwis" and had colored links. The upper chain intermediate sprocket in my AXK showed about the same wear as yours but it was on the opposite side ;D
Your pictures make me think that there's something wrong with AXK engines - whether it's an unusual tilting angle or longer oil pump intake or something else... autopsy reveals that they just look noticeably worse comparing to BDF's... based on Cole's AXK, yours AXK and mine - they all are badly sludged and had problems with metal screen behind cam housing. I don't think it's coincidence.
-albertr
Yes -- all the upper chains were Sachs and the bottom ones Iwis. This makes me suspect that Lucille's chains may have been the original then. I had no information on the service history from the previous owner - he noted that the transmission was rebuilt at @110k -- right before he bought it. So I was hedging that the chains/guides would have been done at that time - but maybe not, maybe they are original.
In just looking at the block -- I don't think that any coolant comes to the rear of the block -- unless there is a channel in there that I'm overlooking. Anybody have information on the coolant routing inside the engine?
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Been a while since an update - no time to work on the van and still waiting on a few parts to trickle in. That being said, there is something interesting to note here when I did the timing chain guide replacement (and kept using my "good" chains).
On the BDF chains, I noticed that there were some coloured links, one bright yellow and two that were much more subtle. Well I played a hunch and fiddled around a bit and ended up lining up the faded yellow chain links to the the cam phaser timing marks... and what do you know, exactly 16 roller chain pins between the timing marks (which is bang on per Bentley)!
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/396/19195378443_6278f03a8b_b.jpg)
And then, the bright yellow link -- that lines up perfectly with the notched mark on the intermediate sprocket. :)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/278/19789036256_3a5632f833_b.jpg)
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I'm still trying to make a decision on whether or not to use Lucille's ancillary/auxiliary components -- or to switch over to using the BDF components. The question really isn't about which to use, but rather what pulley system to use. The components themselves are identical or interchangeable save for the pulley system.
The big factor at the moment is the crank dampener pulley on my good BDF engine. I haven't figured a way to rig up a method for getting this off -- with the engine on stand you can't use the quick "start" method to breaker-bar the main 27mm bolt free. I need a 46mm wrench to counter hold the dampener to loosen the bolt -- but the job looks like a special tool is needed. Either the VW tool 3406 -- or an angled 46mm wrench is going to be needed. I can get a 46mm socket and maybe shave it down enough for through access and it to be side clamped with a big pipe wrench.
Here's a photo linked to from Boraspec's VR6 build on the vortex:
VW TOOL 3406
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b83/boraspecvr6/IMG_0205_zps376db6ac.jpg)
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The main difference between the pulley systems is one of pulley width (6 rib on BDF vs 7 rib AXF) and offset from the block.
Here you can (barely) see from Lucille's AXF, how much the crank pulley is offset from the block (there is about a 1cm difference between in comparison).
Crank pulley offset comparison
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/480/19377591564_830b4e069b_c.jpg)
Bad AXF
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/372/19973971396_15f79eb348_c.jpg)
Good BDF
That 1cm offset is maintained for just about all the pulleys -- save for the AC compressor (whose position is offset by the ancillary components bracket).
Ancillary Brackets
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/401/19811806888_3fa47aa94a_z.jpg)
L-R: BDF bracket, AXF bracket
The AXF bracket stacks the aux components (alternator, ac compressor and power steering pump) in a more vertically compact way to accommodate the van's engine tilt. I'm not sure if using the BDF's bracket would be too big of a problem (for spacing) -- but it could leave the PS pump and hoses in a much lower, and much more exposed position.
I'd like to move to the AXF bracket - but as this offsets the spacing of the aux components differently - it means a full pulley system conversion is also required. Staying with the BDF bracket also presents some interference to the intake manifold -- so some filing down is needed.
Tensioners
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/375/19811810498_7b71a1071a_c.jpg)
L-R: BDF tensioner, AXF tensioner
Another good thing of sticking with the AXF aux components -- is the belt tensioner. The offset and pulley size issue is also a factor here -- but the sheer spring size is much larger and that is somewhat reassuring as to the "heavier-duty" design of this compared to the BDF tensioner. Not sure if either are plagued with failures - but there are posts on the Vortex that suggest the BDF tensioner does fail after a while.
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Nice review, Itsamoto! While you are looking at the ancillary components bracket, can you possibly make a few more pictures of it? I haven't had mine out for a while and trying to recall how it sits on the crankcase.
I'm trying to fit a high output alternator to my 2001 EVC which would require going with a smaller size alternator pulley in order to increase alternator's RPM's. Since EVC uses a double-sided belt and it's only available in one length I'm looking to find a way to move A/C compressor further away from to belt tentioner. That would allow to use the same belt with a smaller alternator pulley and still maintain its tention. Maybe it would be possible to fabricate some spacer to go between crankcase and ancillary components bracket? Any thought?
-albertr
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Nice review, Itsamoto! While you are looking at the ancillary components bracket, can you possibly make a few more pictures of it? I haven't had mine out for a while and trying to recall how it sits on the crankcase.
I'm trying to fit a high output alternator to my 2001 EVC which would require going with a smaller size alternator pulley in order to increase alternator's RPM's. Since EVC uses a double-sided belt and it's only available in one length I'm looking to find a way to move A/C compressor further away from to belt tentioner. That would allow to use the same belt with a smaller alternator pulley and still maintain its tention. Maybe it would be possible to fabricate some spacer to go between crankcase and ancillary components bracket? Any thought?
-albertr
Thanks -- I can certainly get some picks of the bracket and how it's mocked up.
On the BDF, each ancillary component connects to the bracket independent of each other. Where as with the AXF -- the alternator piggy-backs off of a mount that is added onto the AC compressor. I will try and get you some pics to illustrate this. You could probably space the the alternator out further with a creative solution -- but that bracket would need to be reinforced.
Here's some alternator info that I've been looking at with Lucille. One of the advantages of staying with the BDF components, is that the alternator is equipped with an clutch pulley - as opposed to the standard pulley on the AXF's. Just from casual research, it seems the clutch pulley not only helps maintain the life of the alternator (reducing the harshness of speed changes) - but also quiets and smooths out belt vibrations.
Alternators
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/389/19999870275_b5c44f0785_c.jpg)
L-R: BDF with clutch pulley, AXF with standard pulley
Clutch Pulley
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/319/19973637306_67b52ccbfc_z.jpg)
There is also a removable cover for these that keeps the inside nice and clean.
Pulley Offset
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/482/19378904763_7a667553b0_z.jpg)
Top-Bottom: AXF, BDF
Offset and pulley size are still a factor here -- but if anybody is putting in a new alternator, I think finding a Eurovan compatible clutch pulley is a must. Lots of stories of alternator failure with the EV -- even Lucille is on (at least) her second alternator.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3816/19813196989_5d5e63eab0_z.jpg)
One thing from the Bentley in regards to alternator sizing -- there is a fusible link in the engine bay that should be verified before upsizing over a 120A alternator. Seen here in this picture -- the 175A fuse on the far right.
Alternator Fusible Link
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/281/19807917482_16c142641b_z.jpg)
Hopefully somebody can find an EV compatible Liten OAD pulley. Worth a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EXYP1CmL9Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EXYP1CmL9Q)
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Ok as requested...
Here is a few more pics of the AXF ancillary/aux bracket. From the bench - so just imagine this rotated clockwise 115 degrees. ;)
AXF Bracket
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/298/20046133335_336cacaafb_c.jpg)
Mocked Component Setup
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/500/19423483374_8bedcba839_c.jpg)
AXF Alternator, BDF AC compressor and PS pump
Here is the big difference between otherwise identicle AC compressors -- the AXF's has a third mounting handle with an extension to piggy back the alternator. This is the extension back on the top that the alternator is attached to.
AXF AC Compressor
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/494/19858059838_9ef26e0537_c.jpg)
Top: special bracket for alternator attachment
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Itsamoto, thanks! Can you possibly make a few more pictures of the AXF bracket from different angles? I'm trying to see how does it attach to the crankcase. Basically, I'm trying to see if it would be possible to fab some spacer to go between the bracket and the crankcase for purpose to put alternator further away from the belt tentioner, something like the following picture (I borrowed one of your pictures for this illustration):
(http://www.iral.com/~albertr/EVC/alternator/bracket.jpg)
-albertr
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More notes and pics of ancillary bracket -- mounted.
The version for 24v uses 5 bolts - - the tops are M8x60, with two M8x28 and one M8x25 at the bottom. From my Bentley - which only covers the 12v AES - the bracket nearly the same except for extra mounting using a M8x60 bolt. The BDF bracket is much more consistent - using just M8x30 and M8x28.
You can see how much thicker top of the AXF bracket is - but laying it flat on the table I would say that all the mounts are in the same plane -- so if you space it off the block, perhaps you should be spacing all 5 mounting points by the same amount.
AXF Bracket
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/539/19931074668_03ca7ca02c_c.jpg)
Mounted to good BDF
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/543/20111177702_ce6eb9fd9e_c.jpg)
5 bolt positions
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/436/19931079968_63bb965de7_c.jpg)
As seen from side
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Itsamoto, thanks! That's extremely helpful! Based on these pictures, it looks like I don't even have to fab a special spacer for this bracket, probably can get away with using simple spacers on mounting bolts.... Looks very encouraging, I'll start looking into high-output alternators scene again.
Thanks again!
-albertr
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Itsamoto, thanks! That's extremely helpful! Based on these pictures, it looks like I don't even have to fab a special spacer for this bracket, probably can get away with using simple spacers on mounting bolts.... Looks very encouraging, I'll start looking into high-output alternators scene again.
Thanks again!
-albertr
No problem -- can't wait to see what your solution turns out to be.
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In attempting to find at least a clutch pulley, or better yet a Litens OAD pulley for my alternator -- I pulled the standard pulley to take some measurements. This may also be useful to those who want to follow suit or overdrive their alternator with a smaller pulley. Some of the dims are critical to ensure that everything lines up.
AKF Standard Alternator Pulley
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/468/19934945158_f7ebc6d225_c.jpg)
And as a silver lining -- when I looked up the part number from Lucille's rebuilt alternator, it turns out it is 150A! I was wonder why that fusible link was already 175A. ::)
Bosch 150A alternator
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3816/19813196989_5d5e63eab0_z.jpg)
For those who like to hunt the scrapyard -- a quick cross reference says this model is available off of 04-06 Touaregs with the 3.2 VR6
Also of interest -- even though the pulley is a 7 groove, Lucille was running just a 6 groove belt. ???
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Itsamoto, great information! Can you also check the dimensions of BDF clutch pulley if you get a chance? I'm curious to know if it has the same OD (65 mm) or smaller?
Also, how many spline teeth the clutch pulley has?
-albertr
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Itsamoto, great information! Can you also check the dimensions of BDF clutch pulley if you get a chance? I'm curious to know if it has the same OD (65 mm) or smaller?
Also, how many spline teeth the clutch pulley has?
-albertr
I made a quick measure, but its not as accurate because the pulley is still on the alternator. The BDF's pulley is ~61mm OD, and ~41mm Length, with 6 groove. Theoretically it might work with use of spacer to bump it further out.
The other important factor for sizing a clutch pulley, is going to be the thread of the alternator's output shaft. So far the Bosch models I have have the same 16x1.5 thread.
I've been talking to Ritchie at IAT-USA.com (http://www.iat-usa.com) -- and he's closing on a suitable clutch pulley replacement for the stock solid pulley found on the eurovan. I'll update when I find out more.
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Great, thanks! Keep us updated on your pulley quest.
-albertr
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One thing that I came upon that I wanted to pass along here for VR6 vans. I noticed that with all three of the 24v engines I had on hand, that the thermostat housing is real weak point. Every engine exhibited signs of coolant leak -- the engines always dirty and grimy right below the housing.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/539/18788454795_3f9a7089fc_c.jpg)
In looking at the housings closely, all of them exhibit signs of leaking or breaking down. Lucille was also sporting a metal impeller water pump -- which I believe was not stock, and thereby she's probably on here second thermostat housing as well!
Thermostat Housings
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19992873102_4f4a7b492b_z.jpg)
Housing from a BDF -- plastic flange is warping and beginning to separate. It's not visible in this picture, but there is gap there where coolant could swap out through.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/352/19974376876_83b22944c0_z.jpg)
Second BDF housing -- flange has separated and broken off.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/551/19813937109_3b7cdb2da1_z.jpg)
Lucille's housing with dried-up coolant on the gasket.
These plastic components become very brittle over time -- makes the Eurowise cast housing (http://eurowise.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1171) pretty desirable.
(http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/651014_x800.jpg)
Although these are for 12v, they will mount to the 24v fine -- the known issue is that their extended inlet and outlets mean that they can interfere with MK4 shift linkage. A builder on Vortex is planning on using this on his R32 build -- welding up some AN fittings as well.
As this is for 12v, it also has a 3rd sensor position, meaning it's possible to move the coolant temperature sensor from the rear coolant outlet line to the front/side outlet and clean up the engine bay a bit more.
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Here is mine after 146K miles....
(http://www.iral.com/~albertr/EVC/IMG_3419.jpg)
-albertr
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Yes, these just don't last. One of those ones from the BDF was at ~80k miles! :(
I read Eurowise is working on a cast version for 24v as well -- but I don't think its as big an issue for EV fitment -- we have tons of coolant hose on that side of the engine that can be cleaned up much better as well.
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I managed overcome a big hurdle with the engine conversion -- removing the crank pulley. To remove the pulley, you need a 27mm socket (for the bolt) and a 46mm counter holding wrench. After researching and reading how painful it is to do with the engine out, I was really worried that this might be the show stopper for converting to the AXK ancillary components. Getting stuck with BDF pulleys wouldn't have been all that terrible - but still a compromise to the plan.
Rather than buy the special VW tool (3406) -- I searched for a 46mm offset wrench. They aren't cheap or easy to find around here. Cross searching though, it was interesting to find out that the Haldex/4-motion AWD filter wrench is 46mm -- a near perfect substitute for the DIY'er. Luck smiled on me again, and I managed to find a used one locally for $30 CDN.
Haldex Filter Wrench
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/542/20267975951_85cd891542_c.jpg)
The only modification needed, was to grind out enough clearance for the 27mm socket.
Wrench with Socket
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/311/20075502579_bd19c2d22f_z.jpg)
I was still a little skeptical if this would work with the engine on a stand. I tested out the amount of "effort" that would be needed to loosen the bolt on my garbage BDF -- and it wasn't too bad actually. Socket w/Breaker bar + 4' cheater bar, Haldex wrench + 4' cheater bar = bolt off! :)
With the "good" engines - I carefully made sure that the loosening forcers were as balanced as possible -- no sense in tipping over the engine at this point.
Loosening the crank pulley
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/296/19639464354_15b51dbded_z.jpg)
Good BDF
As per the norm with Lucille's engine block - lots of paint peeling and rust on the block. After closely looking at the cooling system layout -- I'm convinced its inadequately plumbed - I have more on that to share later.
Lucille's AXK w/ crank pulley removed
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/318/20253805062_97cbba9710_z.jpg)
For those keeping score, this sealing plate/ crank cover is actually different between the BDF and AXK -- different part numbers : 021 103 153 vs 021 103 0153 A. The difference (as I can tell) is just to the prying tab locations.
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It's great to hear that you are making a nice progress!
Is that the wrench you were using?
https://vw.snapon.com/SpecialToolsDetail.aspx?itemId=7690003
-albertr
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It's great to hear that you are making a nice progress!
Is that the wrench you were using?
https://vw.snapon.com/SpecialToolsDetail.aspx?itemId=7690003
-albertr
Yes that is it -- a Haldex filter wrench. I'm surprised how cheap it is (although just about everything is cheaper stateside)-- I've seen them going for $60-80.
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In attempting to find at least a clutch pulley, or better yet a Litens OAD pulley for my alternator -- I pulled the standard pulley to take some measurements. This may also be useful to those who want to follow suit or overdrive their alternator with a smaller pulley. Some of the dims are critical to ensure that everything lines up.
AKF Standard Alternator Pulley
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/468/19934945158_f7ebc6d225_c.jpg)
I was looking into alternator pulley tonight and I think the following one might be a close match size-wise:
(http://www.iral.com/~albertr/EVC/alternator/INA_F-557311.01.jpg)
It's known under the following part numbers:
Valeo 595258
440127
440128
DB 271 155 02 15
271 154 14 02
271 154 15 02
INA F-557311.01
Used on the following DB cars:
C 160 Sportcoupe Kompressor
C 180 Kompressor,-Kombi,-Sportcoupe
C 200 Kompressor,-Kombi
C 200 CGI Kompressor,-Kombi
C 230 Kompressor,-Kombi
C 250 CGI,-Kombi
CLC 160, 180, 200 Kompressor
CLK 200 Kompressor,-Cabriolet
CLK 200 CGI,-Cabriolet
E 200 CGI,-Kombi
E 250 CGI,-Kombi
SLK 200 Kompressor Cabriolet
It's has a smaller O.D. @ 55.7mm vs. 61 mm of stock AXK pulley, but I think 55.7mm still would work with stock belt.
Also this pulley is darn expensive - more than a $100!
-albertr
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There's also a similar pulley with even smaller O.D. of 50mm - INA F-239808 aka
Valeo 593960
MB 642 150 03 60
642 150 06 60
Jeep 05175811AA
and other names...
It's used on the following cars:
Chrysler 300C 3.0 CRD
Jeep Commander 3.0 CRD
Grand Cherokee III 3.0 CRD
MB C 320/350 CDI
CLK 320 CDI
CLS 320/350 CDI
E 280/300/320/350 CDI
G 320/350
GLK 320/350 CDI
GL 320/350CDI
ML 280/300/350 CDI
R 350
Sprinter 218,219,318,319
419,518,519
Viano 3.0
Vito 120/122
(http://www.iral.com/~albertr/EVC/alternator/INA_F-239808.jpg)
Most likely will not work with stock serpentine belt without some spacers to take away belt slack.
-albertr
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It's has a smaller O.D. @ 55.7mm vs. 61 mm of stock AXK pulley, but I think 55.7mm still would work with stock belt.
Also this pulley is darn expensive - more than a $100!
-albertr
Awesome Albertr -- thanks for searching. This first pulley could be the ticket -- and its also the correct thread for the Bosch alternators @ M16x1.5.
From talking to the supplier, he mentioned to me that one of the critical measures is the distance to first groove -- which is measured from the back side of the pulley. So on the van's pulley -- I crudely measured 18mm to the start of the groove, while the INA pulley is 19.4mm to the valley of the groove.
Theoretically, if the distance to first groove matched, you could run an 8, 9 or 10 groove pulley -- because your belt would be aligned and run straight onto the pulley without any sort of lateral stress fro misalignment.
At $100 it is expensive, but these things save alternators!
UPDATE: Supplier says these are about $39 each.
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Guys, does anyone knows how to find out the O.D. of the following crankshaft pulley - VAG P/N 03H105243Q ?
It's used on 2011 - 2013 Touareg with 3.6L V6 (which looks to be VR6 on steroids). I'm trying to see if I can get its 220Amps alternator implanted into EuroVan and need to calculate pulley's ratio.
-albertr
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Guys, does anyone knows how to find out the O.D. of the following crankshaft pulley - VAG P/N 03H105243Q ?
It's used on 2011 - 2013 Touareg with 3.6L V6 (which looks to be VR6 on steroids). I'm trying to see if I can get its 220Amps alternator implanted into EuroVan and need to calculate pulley's ratio.
-albertr
Is it the same as this: http://www.amazon.com/Porsche-Cayenne-Alternator-INA-F-235449/dp/B008POEOLY (http://www.amazon.com/Porsche-Cayenne-Alternator-INA-F-235449/dp/B008POEOLY)
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I have INA F-235449 as it came on 220Amps Valeo alternator (received it tonight!) and I already measured its O.D. as 55.6mm top of the ribs). Description says 61 mm, but 61mm is O.D. @ the top of the flange, which is irrelevant.
I'm looking for O.D. of VAG 03H105243Q which is a crankshaft pulley from the same vehicle I got my 220Amps alternator from.
Need to check pulley ratio to make sure it's the same or close.
-albertr
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Spoke to the local VW dealer today morning and was told that 03 H 105 243 Q was discontinued and there's no replacement number available. Interesting what owners of 2011 - 2014 Touareg with 3.6L VR6 will do if they need to replace their crankshaft pulley?
-albertr
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Spoke to the local VW dealer today morning and was told that 03 H 105 243 Q was discontinued and there's no replacement number available. Interesting what owners of 2011 - 2014 Touareg with 3.6L VR6 will do if they need to replace their crankshaft pulley?
-albertr
The crank pulley is virtually indestructible - but I think there are aftermarket fluid dampener pulleys for these engines. If you contact the mfg (INA engineering?)- they may be able to confirm the specs you are looking for.
Here's a thread on these pulleys from vortex: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5931012-***-INA-2-8-12V-2-8-3-2-24V-3-6-24V-VR6-FLUIDAMPR-Pulley-*** (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5931012-***-INA-2-8-12V-2-8-3-2-24V-3-6-24V-VR6-FLUIDAMPR-Pulley-***)
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Thanks! Here's my thoughts - please feel free to correct if anything is wrong:
1. I found someone who measured the circumference of 3.6L VR6 crankshaft pulley (03 H 105 243 Q) as roughly 444 mm.
AXK crankshaft pulley has circumference of approx. 434 mm (measured it awhile ago, if I remember correctly), so it's a little bit smaller. Itsamoto, did you have a chance to measure your AXK crankshaft pulley size too?
2. INA F-235449 (used on 220Amps Valeo alternator for 3.6L VR6) has the same O.D. (55.6 - 55.9 mm) as INA F-557311 (closest match). AXK alternator pulley is a little bit larger @ approx. 60.8 mm O.D., but I'm sure that the belt tentioner should be able to compensate for that difference without using additional spacers.
3. So, here's the big question - what are idle RPMs on VW Touareg with 3.6L VR6? And assuming it's the same (650 RPMs) as EuroVan, would 220Amps Valeo alternator still get excited when its RPMs are reduced by 2.25% ?
I'm thinking that if idle RPMs of Touareg 3.6L VR6 turns out to be roughly the same as EuroVan's 2.8L VR6, than this 2.25% difference shouldn't matter and there's a good chance that 220Amps Valeo alternator paired with INA F-557311 pulley would work on EuroVan too.
However, if Touareg's idle RPMs turns out to be much higher (i.e. 800+), then we should go with a smaller pulley instead - i.e. INA F-239808 has O.D. of 50 mm. But in this case we will need to use some spacers to remove belt slack or find someone who can manufacture a shorter 7 ribs double-sided belt.
What do you think?
-albertr
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Looking at the AFL transmission, there was a lot of grime and build up on it that I have been working away at. Much of it can be sanded off by hand -- but there was a good amount of brake fluid in the clutch housing area. It looks wet in the picture -- only because I've been trying to degrease it slowly and scrub it out. Usually this is a sign that the throwout bearing is leaking fluid -- and so while I'm there it should be replaced. The 02G transmissions differ from the early vans - by use of a hydraulic throw out bearing, as opposed to the hydraulic levered style. This is more in line with MK4 generation transmissions as well - but the mounting pattern of the throw out bearing seems unique to each.
AFL Transmission
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/462/18617437870_cb731ca87e_c.jpg)
Notice throw-out bearing in place
I pulled the bearing out and inspected it -- and it did show some evidence of leaking from the back. Because of this I decided to order a replacement - but the original design (which is the best quality IMHO) is no longer available. Some where along the line -- the design switched to a cast version of the housing (definitely cheaper to make with less parts). However, the best thing about the original bearing housing is that it can be completely disassembled and rebuilt with new seals. My problem is I can't find the seals anywhere - very hard. And even if I did find one the right size - its not necessarily properly rated for brake fluid and putting it back together without damaging a new seal also pretty tricky - the tolerances here are very exact.
Original throw-out bearing
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/364/20117733098_4b689d7b43_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/530/20117737830_aa1f49f288_c.jpg)
Disassasmbled
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/350/20311759031_1c8b076162_z.jpg)
Quality - machined housing
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/336/20119135299_b1e8bffa8f_c.jpg)
Even the bearing face was in very good shape.
So I ended up buying a cheap replacement - along with a bunch of other parts (that mostly don't fit >:( ). I've learned my lesson not buy this junk anymore, but I thought it was worth the little up-front investment to see these Chinese made replacement parts first hand. Logic kicked in - and I realized that I don't want this part to fail prematurely for a difference of $100 - that would be a waste of time/effort to pull the transmission off again. So I ponied up and bought the German-made LUK throw-out bearing.
Side by side, the cheapo is very much a replica of the LUK - but the visible difference is that the LUK version has machined surfaces, where as the Chinese does not. Its actually not a big deal on the surfacse that I'm showing below - but if thats the same case on the inside, then I can only speculate that will lead to leaking fluid much faster.
AFL Throw-out bearings
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/319/20117721250_5ac5fb9f4f_c.jpg)
From L-R: Original OEM, Cheapo, LUK
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/436/19684772983_154b9bce61_c.jpg)
Side by side -- castings are identical in dimension.
Chinese version
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/379/20119126429_95d2004e4f_z.jpg)
Sorry for lousy picture
LUK machined surfaces
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/381/20297349032_ae4a207fcc_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/514/20117731790_d7f019e473_z.jpg)
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Thanks! Here's my thoughts - please feel free to correct if anything is wrong:
1. I found someone who measured the circumference of 3.6L VR6 crankshaft pulley (03 H 105 243 Q) as roughly 444 mm.
AXK crankshaft pulley has circumference of approx. 434 mm (measured it awhile ago, if I remember correctly), so it's a little bit smaller. Itsamoto, did you have a chance to measure your AXK crankshaft pulley size too?
2. INA F-235449 (used on 220Amps Valeo alternator for 3.6L VR6) has the same O.D. (55.6 - 55.9 mm) as INA F-557311 (closest match). AXK alternator pulley is a little bit larger @ approx. 60.8 mm O.D., but I'm sure that the belt tentioner should be able to compensate for that difference without using additional spacers.
3. So, here's the big question - what are idle RPMs on VW Touareg with 3.6L VR6? And assuming it's the same (650 RPMs) as EuroVan, would 220Amps Valeo alternator still get excited when its RPMs are reduced by 2.25% ?
I'm thinking that if idle RPMs of Touareg 3.6L VR6 turns out to be roughly the same as EuroVan's 2.8L VR6, than this 2.25% difference shouldn't matter and there's a good chance that 220Amps Valeo alternator paired with INA F-557311 pulley would work on EuroVan too.
However, if Touareg's idle RPMs turns out to be much higher (i.e. 800+), then we should go with a smaller pulley instead - i.e. INA F-239808 has O.D. of 50 mm. But in this case we will need to use some spacers to remove belt slack or find someone who can manufacture a shorter 7 ribs double-sided belt.
What do you think?
-albertr
Really out of my depth to suggest otherwise -- I wouldn't haven considered some of these things . I think that the pulley you found is best replacement, however the difference in OD size and the amount of slack that the tension can absorb are things I think need to be tried to figure out. Obviously if the belt is too loose (due to smaller pulley) - there is a danger there of the belt coming off. So, it might be worth looking at BDF belt as well - its a little shorter than the AXK belt was (and a little thinner too).
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Thanks, Itsamoto. Don't want to hijack your conversion project - I'll move pulley/alternator discussion to the following thread:
http://www.cavevan.com/forum/index.php?topic=24.0
-albertr
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Here is what I got from my kit for the hydraulic line. I put the throw-out bearing housing there as well to see the whole line (minus the master clutch cylinder).
02G Clutch Hydraulic Lines
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/19840124973_fa8468af25_b.jpg)
Now from what I gather, looking at ETKA diagrams and what not -- it looks like I have an extra line included here (the long twisty line shown centre bottom). Otherwise, starting from the bottom right corner, going counter clockwise, the items are:
Pressure pipe 701721461E (goes from clutch master cylinder and passes through firewall) -- has the firewall pass grommet on it.
The top line shown here is actually an assembly of different parts as well.
There is an T connection housing(701721451A), that receives the first pressure pipe line. This T-junction also has bleed valve on it. Looking at ETKA -- this appears to be an optional fitting. From here a short run of pressure pipe (701721462A) connects into a black coupler (no part number) and then to a long pressure line with a flexible portion. This pressure pipe is a variation of part number 7D1721477D - -but which variation probably depends on your transaxle's code. That line then connects to a coupler - shown top left -- that connects the pressure line assembly to the clutch slave cylinder.
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Clutch woes -- need some advice.
Well I'm running up against a bit of wall with the clutch plans, and was hoping to get some sound advice from the forum.
Basically, there are two different standards of input shaft spline on the VR6 transmissions and clutch discs must match -- these standards are 7/8" 28 tooth (sometimes called 22mm or 11/16"), and 15/16" 23 tooth (24mm). Seems that all 12v VR6s (including the Eurovan AFL transmission) are all 7/8"-28T -- while the 24v VR6 are 15/16"-23T. Interestingly though, the Eurovan is on a DMF, while all the other 12v are SMF - 24v is DMF.
The crux is that I've been hoping to use the dual mass flywheel and pressure plate that I have from the GLI -- they are in great condition and this would upgrade the clutch to a stout 240mm (vs 219mm spec). To use this setup requires a custom made 7/8"-28t clutch disc to match the transmission. So currently I have long-outstanding order with vendor (whom I will not name) for a custom disc - but I have some doubts that this is going to be delieverd and must consider other options. Delivery has gone from 2 weeks, then to 1 month and now we're at 2 months - with all sorts of BS as well.
So, here are the options as I see them...
1. Find another vendor capable of making the 240mm disc w/ 7/8" 28T spline
PRO: Upgrades to 240mm and retains using the DMF flywheel and pressure plate (of which I have 2 sets on hand).
CON: Custom order required ($$$). Still may not fit in the trans housing when all bolted up. [/s][/color]
2. Import spec AFL components: NEW 219mm clutch disc and NEW pressure plate
PRO: Spec fit (for 12v)
CON: Items must be imported. Re-uses original flywheel (very rare). Possible issues dealing with higher output of 24v?
3. Use a 12v VR6 Clutch kit: NEW SMF flywheel and pressure plate, NEW 228mm clutch disc
PRO: Lots of choice, easily available and cheaper. Upgrades to 228mm
CON: SMF could induce wear on an already used and rare transmission. Possible issues dealing with higher output of 24v?
Thoughts and ideas?
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Sorry, Itsamoto, I wish I can contribute, but don't know much about it... Hopefully, somebody else can chime in.
-albertr
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Now I expected there to be some trial and error with this "build" -- as I'm trying out different parts and combinations -- however this one is pretty stupid on my part. :-[
After doing a dry fit of the 240mm BDF clutch -- this time mounted to the motor. It does not fit inside the bell housing. >:(
My mistake was that I had previously test fitted the clutch by holding it up to the AFL and checking the clearance. It looked good, just as tight as the spec unit --- but I was just tilting the unit into the housing - not lining it up squarely. Turns out the AFL bell housing throat isn't a perfect circle -- instead it has a couple of small flat spots in it which become a show stopper. Visually the 2400m unit looked the same size as the 219mm spec clutch (but I should have measured it more carefully because it's actually about 4mm larger).
Guess I needn't get all hung up over that custom clutch disc that I will soon be throwing in the garbage. >:(
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Clutch woes -- need some advice.
3. Use a 12v VR6 Clutch kit: NEW SMF flywheel and pressure plate, NEW 228mm clutch disc
PRO: Lots of choice, easily available and cheaper. Upgrades to 228mm
CON: SMF could induce wear on an already used and rare transmission. Possible issues dealing with higher output of 24v?
Perhaps this is a moot point now with your recent 240mm no-go discovery, but what exactly do you mean by "could reduce wear on an already used and rare transmission"? The DMF is inherently "softer" under foot (ie clutch pedal) than SMF options. The DMF is also weaker and prone to failure with higher output engines. This may sound counter intuitive but the first big mod necessary on a high torque TDI eng build is to ditch the DMF setup and use a SMF setup which can handle the 300+ ft/lbs torque levels no prob.
Does the Trans really care about the type of clutch/flywheel? Not that I know of, when the clutch isn't depressed the eng/trans are linked together. I can see the logic that with the DMF there is some rubber dampening the eng pulses but I've heard nothing regarding inherent problems with the age old single mass flywheel clutch system in this regard. Remember instead of squishy runner there are springy springs dampening.
The useage and adoption by VW of DMFs is mostly for the "smoothness" and feel not for prolonged tranny life. I think if they really cared about that they would have had a different AT oil/filter change interval :-).
Justin
2000 EVW 5-spd TDI
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squishy rubber!
2000 EVW 5-spd TDI
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Perhaps this is a moot point now with your recent 240mm no-go discovery, but what exactly do you mean by "could reduce wear on an already used and rare transmission"? The DMF is inherently "softer" under foot (ie clutch pedal) than SMF options. The DMF is also weaker and prone to failure with higher output engines. This may sound counter intuitive but the first big mod necessary on a high torque TDI eng build is to ditch the DMF setup and use a SMF setup which can handle the 300+ ft/lbs torque levels no prob.
Does the Trans really care about the type of clutch/flywheel? Not that I know of, when the clutch isn't depressed the eng/trans are linked together. I can see the logic that with the DMF there is some rubber dampening the eng pulses but I've heard nothing regarding inherent problems with the age old single mass flywheel clutch system in this regard. Remember instead of squishy runner there are springy springs dampening.
The useage and adoption by VW of DMFs is mostly for the "smoothness" and feel not for prolonged tranny life. I think if they really cared about that they would have had a different AT oil/filter change interval :-).
The transmission cares about what clutch it has in only in affect that it will fit in the bell housing. ;)
From what I've researched, it seems that the biggest redeaming quality of the DMF is that it dampens the amount of engine vibration transferred into the transmission. Whether or not that saves transmissions, I do not know - I'm only thinking of that as a benefit. I thought for sure that the the 240mm unit was good for higher power (with DMF being on newer engines). The junk BDF that I traded for was boosted and running on the stock DMF clutch as well.
As for SMF - I always thought that rougher hurky-jerky engagement (letting the clutch out without being properly rev matched) was hard on the transmission internals and thus shortened the transmission lifespan. Where as the DMF sort of quells or corrects for that sort of "poor" shifting. Not that I intend to drive that way. ;)
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(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5751/20622026671_ed52367db1_c.jpg)
Shown with 228mm SMF clutch assembly from 12v VR6
Successful test fit of the 228mm SMF from a 12v VR6. I picked up a new flywheel yesterday morning, and happened to have a used pressure plate and disc to complete the mock up.
Everything spun nicely inside the housing. Now, I just need to do a little more work to determine if the starter pinion will throw out far enough as the starter ring on the SMF is closer to the block than two DMF's (which were spot on for distance). Might have to put the starter on a bench, juice it with 12v and measure the throw. :)
IAT-USA.com (http://"http://www.iat-usa.com/index.html") have all the little parts needed to refurbish and convert Bosch starters.
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A small update in regards to Lucille's oil system...
As coked and sludged up as Lucille's engine was -- it also meant a lot of part cleaning needed to take place before reassembly. There was no way that I wanted any part of that mess to be transferred - so everything had to be cleaned: valve cover, oil pan, oil sump pump, timing chain covers, etc. If it was coming off the block or getting transferred to the good BDF - it was cleaned as best as I could.
Without a parts washer or decent sandblasting setup -- I basically used sand paper, scotch pads, and an assortment of small brushes in combination with vinegar, soapy water, degreaser, mineral spirits, and even Easy-Off oven cleaner. At one point I used a siphon fed air gun to soda blast some off some parts - which works ok but makes a huge white cloud that scares the neighbours.
AXK Oil Pump Housing
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5681/20652427161_13998322af_c.jpg)
Note the imprompto table: a Costco 3-step ladder that I carry in the van for reaching the roof. :D
Oil Pump Components
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5822/19995307113_43981f2df9_c.jpg)
Lot of coke build-up was removed internally from suction and pressure tubes.
Other than the lower pump housing -- with the pickup tube -- all the other parts of the pump are the same as the BDF. The pump from the good BDF was comparitively in pristine (clean) condition -- and I intended to save time on the cleaning by just swapping the lower housings However, there is one bolt to these that really gave me the fits. The oil pump housing is held together by 5 bolts, one of which is located within a recessed part of the upper housing casting. On all three pumps - this recessed area was always clogged with oil -- and of course I stripped the bolt head off of the good clean pump. Very tricky to get at - so be careful if you're cleaning the oil pump.
Oil Pump Recessed Bolt
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/758/20428228720_a421c71287_c.jpg)
Stripped bolt head on right side.
BTW -- Am I the only one who regularly strips 5mm hex bolts? Any other size of hex bolt and I am good to go. Maybe my collection of 5mm bits are done.
Oil pan cleaned too. You can see some of my cleaning tools - a tooth brush and an o-ring pick to get some of the really stubborn bits off. ;)
AXK Oil Pan
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5683/20428204088_8106aab834_c.jpg)
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I would pay extra attention to this metal mesh screen on the oil pick-up tube. On my AXK after cleaning it, I didn't notice how badly it was contaminated until I looked thru it to the light. It took a while to remove all the deposits from this screen.
-albertr
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I would pay extra attention to this metal mesh screen on the oil pick-up tube. On my AXK after cleaning it, I didn't notice how badly it was contaminated until I looked thru it to the light. It took a while to remove all the deposits from this screen.
-albertr
Yes good suggestion -- it was pretty filthy as well.
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The other parts of the engine that I cleaned up - included the valve cover, timing covers and the small front crank cover. I sanded them down as best as possible - but decided to add some engine paint to them as they still looked slightly pitted (tiny black specs).
I also took the time to replace the front and rear crank seals. I have read some posts that suggest that unless the crank oil seals are leaking - that they can be reused. However - its also very difficult to get the oil seals to go back onto any shaft properly. New seals come with a plastic insert that is tapered at one end and lets you slide the seal on without it folding up on itself. Its not impossible to put on without it - but it helps to keep the insert tool - it will come in handy if the lower timing cover has to be removed.
Main Rear Seals
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5815/19993609364_b3225512f2_c.jpg)
L-R: Old seal damaged in removal, new seal with insert
Front Crank and Lower Timing Covers
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5795/20589919596_300c873396_c.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5789/20607115342_4887e9653f_c.jpg)
Now these are the opposite of how it used to be on Lucille - where they were sludge-black on inside and aluminum on the outside. ;)
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Thermostat Housing and Coolant Hose
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5698/20707296185_68e2b26ef1_c.jpg)
A while back we were discussing the apparent and noticeable increase in engine sludge in the Eurovan's AXK engine compared to the MK4 BDF. Both are 24v VR6 -- operating with largely the same oil-system components -- same oil filter and cooler, same oil pump (other than pick up length). Not to discredit the engine tilt difference (indicating a difference in oil flow), but one of the theories that I have on why the sludge is more prevelant in the Eurovan is due to the van's inadequate engine cooling (a difference in coolant flow). The oil build up on the AXK is so thoroughly bad - its almost as if it weren't being cooled at all. And despite similar coolant system components (same water pump, thermostat housing, after-run pump) -- the coolant lines are plumbed/routed very differently between the van and mk4 platforms. The van's corrosion prone radiator fan resistors are also a noteworthy factor, but for now let me share the problem as I see it with how the after run (or aux) coolant pump is connected.
To help the discussion, and to illustrate the coolant plumbing, I have posted the flow diagram from the Bentley here: http://www.cavevan.com/forum/index.php?topic=148.0 (http://www.cavevan.com/forum/index.php?topic=148.0). Even though its specified for 12v VR6, from my study its the 24v uses the same setup. This setup is also typical of all the VR6 vans, with front and rear heating cores and an automatic transmission.
The first thing to look at with the van is the location of the after-run coolant pump -- where it is placed on the recirculation line (radiator bypass line). Upstream of the pump, is a vacuum controlled valve that connects the recirculation line to the cold coolant supply line (from the radiator). When the engine is running, vacuum closes the valve -- when the engine is off, the valve opens. The operational theory is that when the van shuts down -- the after-run pump starts up and the vacuum valve opens -- which allows the pump to continue moving the recirculation line, while mixing in cold coolant from the supply line.
Vacuum Valve
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5639/20716698081_438958c88b_c.jpg)
The first problem with this is that using coolant from the recirculation line is that the coolant can actually be hot or not cooling down enough to reduce engine block heat. The problem is greater in warm weather when the heater cores are not used -- even the ATF "cooler" can be supplying hot coolant into the recirculation line. So even though the vacuum valve opens to begin mixing in cold coolant from the radiator -- its still primarily hot/heated coolant fluid being used to cool the engine block.
The second problem is that without any check valves in place (to direct flow) - the supply of coolant must overcome the weight of a lot of coolant in the system. Passing through the thermostat housing is also a problem. The aux pump can actually "dead head" itself and flow back through the open thermostat and back down the cold coolant supply line (reversing the flow). If this happens, then theoretically the after run coolant pump is not passing coolant through the radiator or the engine block.
Now the BDF coolant system works differently, and I would say much better. On the 24v VR6 engine block, there are two ports for coolant flow. One port is used to supply coolant to the oil cooler (which then returns into the crack pipe) -- this is same same on AXK and BDF. The second port - located right in the middle of the engine -- is used on the BDF as the inlet for the after run coolant pump! On the AXK, this port is capped off. So, instead of drafting off the recirculation line, the BDF's after run coolant pump drafts solely from the cold coolant supply line! It even has a check valve that prevents back flow when the engine is running (and coolant is being moved by the water pump).
BDF Coolant Pump
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5780/20084732014_ae5d6ec438_c.jpg)
Mounts to engine block with bracket and has a check valve to prevent backflow.
Aux Coolant Pump on BDF
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5770/20086355433_b8c65ce671_c.jpg)
Supplies coolant directly into block -- this port not used on AXK
So obviously without a bunch of flow meters and temp senders to monitor and study different coolant system models -- this all just wild theory. I'm not trying to "out think the german engineers" -- but clearly the routing on the MK4 seems more effective (when gauging on internal oil build up). I speculate that the reason why the van's coolant plumbing didn't work so well - is that they just used the same setup from the 12v. The 12v setup (even on MK3/4) utilized the after-run coolant pump on the recirculation line and 12v block only had one coolant port (as opposed to the two on the 24v).
12v Block
(http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/engines/images/021-100-031-E.jpg)
One coolant port?
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Well my custom ordered clutch arrived earlier today. :-\
Custom 240mm Clutch Disc w/ 7/8" 28T spline
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/566/20535070099_529ddcdc24_c.jpg)
Fitment is pretty good on the flywheel -- although it would have to be used upside down. Seems that normally on these DMF, the long/tall side of the centre hub faces into the flywheel.
Custom Disc on 240mm DMF from BDF
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5793/20695578426_a2effd6b9a_c.jpg)
Now for your amusment, here is the fitment of the 240mm DMF against the AFL transmission. Looks like it could actually fit if I were to grind out a few mm the interior of the bell-housing.
240mm DMF against AFL
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/641/20721817115_2a25354c53_c.jpg)
Hmmm... Risk ultra-rare transmission inorder to clearance my custom disc investment? Hmmm... ;)
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So in the pursuit of getting the VR6 single mass flywheel to work, I spent some time messing with the starter. My AFL kit came with a starter, but it doesn't have the right throw to reach the SMF flywheels' starter ring. The offset of the starter rings is different between SMF and DMF - with SMF's being approximately 10mm further inset. So, with just a dry fit, the AFL's starter would only allow for a couple of mm of pinion engagement -- and that's a recipe for having to open things up again. So instead, I went to the junk yard and pulled a VR6 starter off a 2001 12v-VR6 Jetta (uses the same SMF as what I'm toying with). These are pretty easy to work on and the parts are largely interchangeable with like models -- which the AFL's is.
Not knowing much about starters before I started working on this -- one of the most useful things videos I watched was on a breakdown of changing the brushes on a bosch starter. Excellent video -- and directly applicable to us EV owners.
LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJM2veUNBc0 (http://"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJM2veUNBc0")
Starters
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5792/20880415068_24d823c8c2_b.jpg)
From L-R: Lucille's 01P starter, 02G-AFL starter, 02J starter
Looking at this pic, I took Lucille's starter and practiced the disassembly months ago. I sanded down and repainted the case, which is why it looks in much better condition (although it was just as ugly as the others). Some 100-grit sand paper and a spray can of Rustoleum really do wonders for these. ;)
Now for those who watched the video link, here's the great thing about these starters they are Bosch 110 and 125 series. Just like in the video, I had to sand down the crud to see properly that Lucille's original is a 110 series, and that the 02G and 02J starters were 125 series. Between the 110 and the 125 series, the brushes, brush holder and the top cap with bushing are all interchangeable. The internal armature and the housing are not.
Part numbers
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/674/21043314076_68ed2318f6_b.jpg)
L-R: 01P's 110 Series, 02G's 125 series (VW #02B911023D) , 02J's 125 series (VW# 02A911023S)
EDIT: Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission.
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So the idea to create a Frankenstein starter from the available parts - mostly the parts from the two 125 series starters. Combining the longer starter pinion from the 02J starter and the bracket from the 02G-AFL -- is the goal.
02G Starter Drive
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5669/20880426978_532135fafc_z.jpg)
10-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 28mm Gear OD, 81mm L
02G Starter Bracket
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/567/20881550359_0371b0ca62_z.jpg)
I haven't dug far enough to know if this starter bracket is the same for all the T4's with 02G transmissions.
02J Starter Pinion
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5797/21068334395_040419a7ba_z.jpg)
9-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 25.7mm Gear OD, 90mm L
02J Starter Bracket
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/664/21075995221_ca8b211cc3_z.jpg)
So the part numbers share in the previous post are for the entire starter assembly - but breaking the starer apart reveals component sub assemblies that can be ordered. So the starter driver for the 02G is actually Bosch 1-006-209-648, and the starter drive for the 02J's is 1-006-209-643. I had painstakingly measured these with my inferior tools and then once I google the part numbers found all the specs.
02M Starter Solenoid
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5756/21068414525_5f5feca102_z.jpg)
One other thing that I really liked about the junk yard 02J starter -- was that the terminals on the starter solenoid were much better protected from corrosion. The car I pulled it from had been sitting outside - exposed to the elements - and looking rough. However, the solenoid terminals have some covering to them and looked good -- much better than Lucille's original 01P starter that got bit by the corrosion bug and started to fail. Semi-interestingly, the other Eurovan starters and solenoids are all stamped as Bosch-Germany (makes sense as all T4s come from Hannover) -- where as this 02J starter is from Pueblo and the starter is marked as Bosch-Mexico with the solenoid unmarked. Still, I like that it's protected the small spade connector with housings, as that was the main culprit when Lucille's starter failed. Could be a nice little upgrade so I kept the terminal plug.
EDIT: Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission.
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(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5670/20880274990_65986d5e5d_b.jpg)
L-R: 02J starter parts, 02G starter parts, 01P starter parts. The key part in this picture is the 02G starter mounting bracket -- shown centre bottom
So the next step is to take it all apart. Now I had already disassembled Lucille's' starter - before watching the Westronics video (that I posted a link to in a previous post) -- and so I pulled the brush holder off of the commutator before realizing what a pain in the arse it is to put them back in. Each brush is held in place by a spring that keeps it tensioned to the commutator -- so it can be tricky to reassemble. Knowing that (and having watched the Westronics vid) -- I knew better the second and third time around to leave the brush box on! :)
The big pain with taking these apart is the starter solenoid bolts -- some were held with red thread locker. Both the 125 series starter used a phillips head, and I stripped all of them and ended up having to extract/drill them all out. :mad: The single 110 series (from Lucille's 01P) used torx t-20/25 -- and came out just fine. :)
Although the brush boxes are compatible from the 110 and 125 series of starters -- the armatures are different. The 110 series is longer - longer armature, longer case. So really the only parts in play from the 01P starter are the brushes, and the case cap (w/bushing). The brushes from the 01P were actually in very good shape (almost new) - which makes me think Lucille may have had her starter rebuilt -- although the genuine-bosch parts sticker on the solenoid is also a clue. ;)
01P Starter Brushes
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/728/20880463878_6da449d8fc_z.jpg)
Brushes are loose, but in excellent shape - probably within 80-90% of new size.
02G Starter Brushes
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/563/20447308223_1e775bc571_z.jpg)
Brushes need replacement. 3 brushes with 50% left, one with less than 25%. Notice, gap in brush holder showing spring.
02J Starter Brushes
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5682/20445754894_5126f2b138_z.jpg)
Brushes are very good shape - perhaps 75% of new. Springs are tight - noticeably much less brush wear than the other 02G.
And this is main reason I went the junk yard - to retrieve this starter drive pinion - used on manual 12v VR6s (which use a 228m clutch on a SMF). This is 9mm longer than the drive pinion on the 02G.
02J Starter Drive
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5775/21042202786_cfcfb56e77_c.jpg)
Bosch PN# 1-006-209-643
Specs: 9-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 25.7mm Gear OD, 90mm L
Note, that it seems entirely possible to pull these drives ends off of the helical shaft (which is not a part of the drive assembly). The end of the drive shaft has a removable cap, under which a retaining clip holds the drive onto the helical shaft. It's a little more work that I need to do -- I can leave it together and swap all the parts as I am going from like starter models (125 to 125 series). If somebody were going from the 110 series to the 125, then I would need to pull the drive off as the armatures' drive pinion and its subsequent gearing are different between these two series of starters (not to mention that the number of splines on the helical shaft can be different too).
02G Starter Drive
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5725/21058430602_4a90a5f12b_c.jpg)
Bosch PN# 1-006-209-648
Specs: 10-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 28mm Gear OD, 81mm L
With that in hand, I cleaned up the other internal components and assembled the rest with the pick of the litter between like components. The starter housing/case was sanded down and painted. One worthy note on this is that both the 125 starter housing had a lot of buildup and corrosion on the inside. There is a small opening along the top -- opposite to where the brush holder wiring exits -- that allows crud and moisture into the housing. So, I will need to future proof this with some sort of plug.
125 Series Starter interior corrosion
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/752/21058417262_b3c4a2527c_c.jpg)
EDIT: Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission.
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Behold the Frankenstien starter! IT'S ALIVE!
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5640/20445812134_899db0f4fd_b.jpg)
For those keeping score I used the following components in creating this hideous creation. And yes, even parts from the 01P got used.
From the 02G:
- Starter mounting bracket
- Starter drive shaft bearing
- Solenoid to drive lift arm and rubber seal
- Armature Case
From the 02J:
- Starter Armature
- Brushes and holder
- Drive Pinion Assembly
- Unmarked starter solenoid
From the 01P:
- Case top with bearing (I was too lazy to re paint another of these)
- Solenoid mounting fasteners T-20/25 (only ones not stripped or drilled)
- Case mounting bolts (a mistake as you can see in the picture, they are a tad too long) :P
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Well I'm chalking up some of this experience to learning about fitting a starter. Not everything worked as smooth as I was hoping, but the franken-starter was a necessary step. Ideally the starter drives would have worked as planned -- but will show the oversight that has got me a bit stumped and looking at what options (other than shimming) are available.
Franken-starter mounted to 02G-AFL
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/588/20445815514_40160d1f42_c.jpg)
Franken-starter too deep
At this depth, the starter pinion will stay engaged with the starter ring (which spans 32-42mm off the block) with engine running. >:( At this depth the pinion will also be bottoming out on the bell-housing -- although I'm not sure if this is a problem or not. Staying engaged is a big problem though -- and that won't do at all.
Franken-starter
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5834/20880522948_8e0d921a89_c.jpg)
Franken-starter lays defeated on a paper towel
So the premise behind the Franken-starter was to make up the ~10mm inward shift in flywheel starter ring depth on the SMF. And I thought I had found the perfect solution in using the 02J starter...
Here is some of what it had going for it:
- Same Bosch starter model (125) as the 02G
- Pinion gear would mate properly with the flywheel (both for 12v Vr6)
- Pinion gear is longer -- 90mm vs the 81mm of the original driver pinion
At least on paper it seems like a winner, right?
Even when lining both starters up before taking everything apart -- the depth of retracted pinion looked to only be about 1-2mm longer with the 02J -- perfectly acceptable.Well what I did not calculate was that the starter mounting brackets were different sizes.
Starter Comparison
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/584/21042138206_1d5d06e963_c.jpg)
L-R: 02G Starter, 02J Starter
So by the tape, what made the difference:
02G starter:
Armature Case size: ~160mm
Bracket height: 34mm
Retracted Pinion Depth (from mounting surface): ~53mm
Throw: ~+10-12mm
Mounting height (02G): 101mm
02J starter:
Armature Case size: ~160mm
Bracket height: 44mm
Retracted Pinion Depth (from mounting surface): ~55mm
Throw: ~+10-12mm
Mounting height (02A): 97.5mm
So factoring in the 10mm difference in bracket mounting height, and the difference in mounting heights between the 02G and 02A (pressuming 02J is same), then the Franken-starter pinion would have had a net migration of being 13.5mm closer to the starter ring than it would do so if mounted to an 02A/02J transmission.
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Well finally some success with the fitting the starter -- and the answer was there all along. I must like to do things the hard way. ::)
After searching for a different, and more suitable starter drive - I found a good candidate: Bosch 1-006-209-657 -- which is listed as a 9T, CCW, 16sp, 11mm ID, 25.5mm Gear OD, 83mm L. This is 2mm longer than the stock 02G-AFL drive that came with my kit, and 7mm shorter than the 02J-starter drive. Theoretically, this would allow the starter pinion to engage close to (if not) 100% of the starter ring. Good to know. And searching for these pinion drives - Bosch doesn't make it easy - its all the starter parts suppliers (who are making knock-off parts) that have categorized and sorted everything.
Then researching starter shimming -- which seems much more common on GM's -- I read lots of opinion that the drive pinion really only needs to engage 66-75% of the flyhweel ring to work without damaging itself. And I thought, hey I can do that with original starter. So, with that in mind I went ahead and reverted the Franken-starter back to the original shorter pinion, bolted it up and applied 12v. Whats the worst that could happen, some nasty pinion mashing? Instead, it was pure butter. I had to double check to see if the crank was rotating is was so quite!
So as the very least, I learned something about starters, got some almost new brushes in place, and nicer starter solenoid out of the deal. Phew.
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Just about the only salvageable item from the garbage BDF that I acquired was the water pipe. I suppose an extra oil filter housing and after run coolant pump are ok - - but not sure it was worth that busted up transmission I traded away. At least the damaged block has allowed for me to mess around and test with the heavy fasteners, removing freeze plugs or whatever -- all with "no fear of damage". So I guess that was worth something.
Aluminum Water Pipe
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/751/21313806652_048f2ca1b9_c.jpg)
Cleaned out -- sanded and then equipped with new o-rings
Evidently I don't really see how the plastic ones of these could fail before the thermostat housing - but I guess its plastic and can crack.
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Received a LUK VR6 clutch kit (LUK 17036) for Lucille. Rockauto -- cost was about 1/3 of what a local trans shop would sell it to me for. I would buy it local (even though it costs more) -- if wasn't for such a flagrant mark up. I'm obviously not in a rush, so I bit on the shipping and wait time. :D
LUK 17036 KIT
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5751/21491834106_26929c5753_c.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5619/20895589404_07494929d6_c.jpg)
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Honestly -- so much of this would be a lot easier if I just stuck with the using the factory parts, instead of trying to make other things fit. :P
Alright - -so I finally had a chance to put the new clutch setup on and I'm pretty happy with the setup. There are issues - things I had overlooked that I am working on. The whole thing has shadows of what I experienced with fitting the starter, where the starter ring placement changed going from DMF to SMF. Well, in this case the depth of the clutch assembles (flywheel, disc, pressure plate) are different as well - which means my concentric slave cylinder (CSC) throw-out bearing may not engage the clutch properly. The 02G's original DMF clutch setup is deeper, sitting at about 85mm when measured from the block to the top of the clutch plate diaphragm springs. The VR6 SMF setup, measures at about 69mm height. And there is also a difference in depth of the bell housing -- with the 02G-AFL being deeper by about 5-8mm. These are some of the factors at play here that I am coming to terms with.
Now my test fitment over the SMF-VR6 went really well. Everything fits nicely, except for the 6-8mm space between the 02G-AFL throwout bearing and the clutch pressure plate.
New VR6 Clutch
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5746/21654243661_342c60f489_c.jpg)
Mounted on Good BDF
VR6 Clutch Diaphragm Springs
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5805/21654245851_1deb692e49_c.jpg)
Flat diaphragm springs.
Not sure why this is so flat -- perhaps it will gain height /angle once the pressure plate is torqued down? I assume that the flatter this is, the softer the pedal touch will be (less fulcrum to overcome)?
For a comparison, and to get the total depth measurement, I mounted up the 02G-AFL clutch components to Lucille's original (BAD AXG). This clutch assembly had a total height of about 85mm -- of which some may be attributable to the high-angle of the diaphragm springs. Now, are these steep pitched springs normal (making for a hard clutch pedal) - or is this a sign of warn clutch? This was actually so high that I couldn't test fit the transaxle over top of this without the CSC bearing compressing the diaphragm springs by about 5-8mm - which makes me think this is not right. Very difficult in the test scenario.
02G DMF Clutch
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/684/21024115963_9bddf8b161_c.jpg)
Mounted to Good BDF
02G DMF Clutch -- Close up
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5739/21458315019_3f6d9cf2a4_c.jpg)
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One thing I'm not sure about is how much the throw out bearing should be engaged with the clutch pressure plate. LUK's literature mentions free play of 3-5mm -- however many other sources of diagrams and examples show the throw-out bearing being in constant contact with the pressure plate springs when the clutch is not engaged. Going by the example of test fitting on 02G DMF would have clearly required the throw out bearing to be in constant contact. Yet with the VR6-SMF setup, the throw out bearing is too far away -- and this may result in a very soft, or slipping clutch. For the time being I am aiming for 3-5mm of space between the throw out bearing and the diaphragm springs.
To close the gap, I first thought about using spacers or standoffs on the throw out bearing housing. Then I remembered some items that came off Lucille's good old automatic transmission -- the flex plate had a shim and washer that matched the crankshaft mounting pattern.
Shim/Compensation Washer
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5631/21457428478_5f39bb3d8a_c.jpg)
PN 021105303C
It turns out that there are a range of shims used on the VR6s, ranging from 0.4 to 2.4mm thick that I now know could be used to help dial in the bearing engagment. The only issue is that as it mounts behind the flywheel, so it takes a long time to put them on and off. If needed I'll order more (but pricey), or go the yard and look for VR6 automatics to open up. ;)
[INDENT]021105301 = 0.5mm washer
021105303 = 0.4mm
021105303A = 0.8mm
021105303B = 1.2mm
021105303C = 1.6mm
021105303D = 2.0mm
021105303E = 2.4mm[/INDENT]
So, to test I used both the shim (1.6mm thick) and the washer (0.5mm thick) combined to move the flywheel and clutch assembly closer to the throw out bearing. As a bonus, this should also improve the percentage of engagement of the starter gear pinion and ring. :thumbup:
The following picture I took with my phone -- I was able to get a decent shot inside the bell housing through the clutch bleeder opening. With a rough measure, I think I managed to get the free play spacing (distance between CSC bearing and pressure plate down to approximately 4-6mm.
Bearing to Pressure Plate spacing
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5637/21655626271_2127837b8c_c.jpg)
Shown: concentric slave cylinder bearing housing, to which the bearing face sits flush.
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Well a small milestone today... I pulled out most of the automatic transmission wiring and the gear selector. I was looking at doing it earlier, but always seem to find another thing that was bit more important at the moment. Funny how something as simple as a hole in the floor can feel like progress. :)
01P Wiring Harness and TCU
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/641/21944821752_6b0f21aa33_c.jpg)
After struggling with it for a while -- I pulled the transmission computer module first, which left lots of room to feed the harness through. It also helps to bend the wiring panel holder out of the way too. ;D
Transmission Computer Cave
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5827/21336473043_9397a69695_c.jpg)
Then everything can simply be disconnected - no need yet to rip anything out from the back of the wiring panel.
What I haven't removed -- is this little bit of wiring from the automatic selector - it routes back the wiring panel under the carpet. The open connector is probably for for the shift lock solenoid -- but there is also a little "limit" switch here as well -- not sure what this is. Any ideas?
Transmission selector wiring
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5715/21930892386_d5927531a0_c.jpg)
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Nice progress, Itsamoto! If you figure out the schematics for that wiring harness to automatic gear shift selector, please let us know.
-albertr
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Nice progress, Itsamoto! If you figure out the schematics for that wiring harness to automatic gear shift selector, please let us know.
-albertr
Thanks A. Yes the mystery "switch" is actually a light to illuminate the floor shift console. ::) Mine never worked - but it might be worth upgrading or fixing for those who are interested.
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Something of interest, here. I have read lots of threads where automatic transmission problems are sometimes treated with a new TCU. Whether or not that is truly necessary, I don't know. But looking at the cost of these rare items, the resemblance to the 01M transmission computer is uncanny and there is already lots of evidence that these transmissions are programmed similarly. Not sure if anybody has ever tried swapping these -- but I think its worth a shot to pick one up from the scrap yard and take a look if you suspect TCU failure.
Transmission Computer
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5790/21966714021_f8e25ef294_c.jpg)
PN 01P 927 733.
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Doh! I always wanted to add illumination to gearshift selector@ It's good to know that VW already routed a wire there, however - is it connected anywhere on the other end? Can you trace where this wire is going to?
Obviously it never worked on my 2001 EVC either, I wonder if VW put it there "just in case" or it actually *IS* supposed to work?
-albertr
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Doh! I always wanted to add illumination to gearshift selector@ It's good to know that VW already routed a wire there, however - is it connected anywhere on the other end? Can you trace where this wire is going to?
Obviously it never worked on my 2001 EVC either, I wonder if VW put it there "just in case" or it actually *IS* supposed to work?
-albertr
Yes it's fully wired up -- routes under the carpet back to the main relay area and then into the spaghetti.
Here's the grey connector coming back to the main harness...
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5784/21988756542_19d1ae0d6c_c.jpg)
The red connector is the solenoid switch -- and it goes to the TCU harness.
And here's the light with the red "condom" off of it -- it's item L79 (Selector Lever Light) on the schematic...
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5829/21378329344_0d6d7db8ed_c.jpg)
It would make a great DIY to convert this to an LED. I think most of us who bought these vans (second hand) never realized it was supposed to be lit up in the first place. :D
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Great, thanks Itsamoto! Any idea why this light didn't work in the first place? Busted bulb or something else?
-albertr
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Great, thanks Itsamoto! Any idea why this light didn't work in the first place? Busted bulb or something else?
-albertr
Yes, just a burnt out bulb.
I supposed I could use this line to supply an illuminated shift knob -- eBay has one for T4's. But - I gotta say, these are disgustingly ugly. Much prefer the regular shift boot. I would be much happier to just find the illuminated knob.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDgwWDM2MA==/$(KGrHqR,!igFC0muqKN2BQ+4L,(QUw~~60_12.JPG)
Source: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/VW-T4-Bus-shift-gear-knob-gaiter-illuminated-leather-real-leather-LED-NEW-/370743042855?hash=item565201e327 (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/VW-T4-Bus-shift-gear-knob-gaiter-illuminated-leather-real-leather-LED-NEW-/370743042855?hash=item565201e327)
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While I've started removing the wiring, I also took out the pedal set out to convert over. Gives some room to work there too.
It's all pretty easy stuff actually. In my original kit, I was supplied with the pedal set from an early eurovan - and it included the whole back plate -- which you don't need to change out (unless you like doing things the hard way).
Its a easy decision to use the Lucille's current pedal set. First off, the potentiometer support bracket is welded in place. Secondly, the newer brake light switches are designed to be non-removable (one time only installation). The existing pedal set already has the necessary mounts for the clutch components already.
This is all pretty straight forward once you remove the pedal cluster (disconnect the brake light switch, brake booster, potentiometer -- and then like 6 bolts (4 on back plate and 2 from above). The hardest is part of which is reaching those top bolts - but all in all very easy.
Supplied Pedals from kit
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/339/18184840183_38ebac285a_c.jpg)
Automatic Pedal Set
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/404/18617682678_b284b683c5_c.jpg)
Pedal Set Comparison
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/304/19789048216_e269d9ff34_c.jpg)
L-R: Supplied Manual Pedals, Clutch Master Cylinder, Automatic Pedal Set
I bought this cheap knock off master cylinder at the same time I bought the cheap knock off slave cylinder (which I decided not to use). Its a pretty simple device, so I will use it for now. I figure that if it starts to leak - its easy enough to change out. It's the same part number as the OEM -- but for whatever reason its missing the sleave on the plunger. :mad:
Clutch Master Cylinder
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/290/19194333043_6369b1ddae_c.jpg)
PN# 701721401B
The switch over is pretty straight forward from here -- remove the pedal pin from each and swap over the clutch and thinner brake pedal from the manual set to the pedal set with the potentiometer.
Just remember -- don't try and remove this brake light switch -- it's one time install item. If you do break it -- its $5 for the knock off version and probably $40 for the OEM.
Brake Light Switch
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/476/19789057626_3f4f16e218_c.jpg)
DO NOT REMOVE THIS!
Now there is one thing that I got hung up on -- and maybe you guys can fill me in on this. The older, manual pedal set has a brake pedal return spring, while the automatic setup did not. I decided to leave it off, as I figure its probably left off on late model vans that have ABS and ESP -- which are computer manipulated processes of the brake hydraulics. I figure, the spring is left off because it can interfere with those systems. I tried to check my two Jettas (one as ESP, the other does not) -- and the Bentley shows nothing -- but too much of a pain to get at just to "compare" things. I got lazy. ;)
Brake Pedal Return Spring w/Sleave
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/263/19977243792_cf0c7be30e_c.jpg)
To use, or not to use?
Put all back together and you get this...
Manual Swap Pedal Set w/Potentiometer
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/272/19627241408_5a3fe99636_c.jpg)
Once I finish some of the wiring -- I will reinstall!
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So while I have the exhaust manifolds off -- I took a bit of time this weekend to clean them up. The Eurovan's AXK manifold differs in shape and construction from the BDF. The difference in construction is that the BDF manifold is entirely cast -- where as the AXK's is welded together. I don't know what may make one better than the other (weight, airflow?) - but I do know that the Eurovan's had a lot of slag where the flanges and pipes are welded together. The slag bump is significant and easy to feel -- but I don't know if it was really enough to restrict airflow. I am not an expert. Either way, I ground out the slag to smooth the entry and exits of the manifold -- increasing the ports by about about 0.5-1.0mm each.
Eurovan AXK Exhaust Manifold
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/698/21495503304_41928471bc_c.jpg)
Non-ported, shown "normal" exposure
Hard to see the the amount of slag in the picture (you can certainly feel it by finger). So this increased exposure shows it a bit better.
Eurovan AXK Exhaust Manifold
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5707/21931426489_c44741a882_c.jpg)
Non-ported, shown "increased" exposure
BDF Cast Exhaust Manifold
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/780/21930455808_68d3759367_c.jpg)
These might be slightly tighter all around, but the ports at least lack the slag ring on the inside.
And the results of the first grinding session...
Modified -- Eurovan AXK Exhaust Manifold
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/655/21931430409_915a97f7cd_c.jpg)
Mildly-ported, shown "normal" exposure
Much smoother entry, matches the gasket much better now with out the ring of "speed bumps". :thumbup:
An the down pipe side (not shown) also suffers from this, so I if get some better grinding tools I may tackle it as well in the off chance that this helps. :)
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Blue Clock Clusters
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/568/22179931706_cf7ea0ef43_c.jpg)
Top to Bottom: Automatic Eurovan Canadian-market, Manual Jetta Canadian-market -- different but the same.
Ok here is some interesting and new stuff regarding the Eurovan "blue clock" cluster. There really isn't much out there on this (as far as I can tell) - there is a thread from back in '04 where some guys were trying to swap an EV cluster into a Cabrio. Interestingly they noted how similar the late model EV was to the 3.5 Cabrio in terms of interior (switches etc) -- sort of caught between Mk3 and Mk4 style evolutions. Maybe this cluster swap info needs its own thread -- an interesting topic that could be fleshed out more. Its actually one of my favourite things about this generation of VW - the blue/red cluster. I've owned a couple of Mk4 Jettas and B5.5 Passat (with a MAF cluster) and now 2 vans -- so the blue cluster feels "right" to me, its second nature.
As Lucille is originally an American-market van, it's cluster face is predominantly imperial "miles" and here, I would prefer it to be in KM. It sort helps keep the speeding tickets down. :laugh: So shortly after I bought the van - I was collecting parts (rear bench headrests of course) for the van and the seller happened to have a Canadian-market van and had swapped the cluster out for an imperial cluster. So yay for me - metric cluster! I used the famous page from the UK T4 group as a basis for verifying what I was going to buy (Linkage: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86937 (http://"http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86937")).
So I've had that Canadian-EV cluster on the shelf for quite a while - and never got around to installing it. Then when I parted the 03 MK4 GLI -- I kept the cluster, key and ECU as I knew it was a mated set (for immobilizer 3). Well just on a hunch, I thought we should put these clusters side by side to see if there was more than just a resemblance and see if they were swappable. This works for me as I;m going to a manual setup, but the principle is the same for all the other late-model vans out there - because it means finding a metric or imperial cluster is that much easier, and now you can upgrade to trip computer and nav-integrated clusters as well (such as the MAF and FIS models). I'm not going to touch the material around immobilizer 2 and 3 -- or how to reprogram or delete the immobilizer here. I don't know it well enough -- and there are plenty of good writeups on it that have been generated by hyper-miling tdi fanatics. The trip computers here allow all that fancy mileage tracking, and fuel estimations to be made -- although this mod also requires a special stock-arm that allows the driver to interface with the computer. Worth exploring - this is a good upgrade - Link: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=48366 (http://"http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=48366")
So here is a quick swap using my two extra clusters to look at...
Looking at the cluster shape -- the plastic lens are at such dramatically different angles, and the overall shape seems so much different, different mounting tabs, etc -- that you would think these are two different animals. But if you look at them from behind, they use the same connections, and the cluster actually splits in half (front/back) and that's what makes the cluster swap possible. BTW - these are both VDO made clusters, apparently there are also Bosch-made blue clusters (MAF and FIS models I suspect).
Rear Harness Connection
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5824/22216368481_431bdfd991_c.jpg)
Top to Bottom: Eurovan Canadian-market, Jetta Canadian-market
Cluster Case Clips
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/653/22179933046_943d3477d4_c.jpg)
Top to Bottom: Eurovan Canadian-market, Jetta Canadian-market
Lined up back to back -- there are 4 clips along the top, and then (not shown) there are 2 clips on the bottom and then 2 T10 screws on the side that hold/separate the front fascia half from the cluster electronics half.
Cluster Electronics
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/606/21585021433_a684358afc_c.jpg)
Top to Bottom: Eurovan Canadian-market, Jetta Canadian-market
So for me -- this swap basically gets me metric and drops the transmission selector display (it will also align my milage indicator with the motor). And if you didn't know this yet, but those cluster faces are removable - and there are bunches of after-market customizable clock faces available for the Mk4 platform.
Now there are some differences to these in terms of warning lights/locations - but I think the addressing is the same (so less of an issue). I used a flash light and peeled the face plates up enough to illuminate the panel.
Where the EV has this...
Eurovan EPC dash light
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5714/22019153549_d527cd4b8d_c.jpg)
The MK4 has this...
Mk4 Immobilzer dash light
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/774/22193326332_8042529937_c.jpg)
And, where the EV has this...
Eurovan: 6 warning lights in "centre"
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5652/22017972570_4ef483afe5_c.jpg)
The MK4 has this...
Mk4: 8 warning lights in "centre"
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/601/22017973720_c002d7c863_c.jpg)
The extras here being "door open", "hood open" and "bulb out indicator" .
Guess we'll have to wait and see if these will stay out if I install it in the van. :)
And finally... swap the front fascia and snap it back together....
Manual cluster for EV
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/643/21583283704_79201da05b_c.jpg)
EDIT -- I just noticed that on the new assembly -- that the control knobs are longer on the MK4 cluster and so stick out even further (+ 8-10mm) on the EV fascia. Certainly something that can be easily swapped as well.
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A recent trip to the local scrap yard proved fruitful for gathering some of the little bits still needed. I picked up a reverse light wiring connector -- its same as on MK3 and some early Mk4 manuals. It was it pretty dirty -- but I also saw that Mk3 golfs have the same electrical connector used for a hood-closed switch -- which was much cleaner being up at the top of the engine housing. And I walked around a picked up some of these metal temperature sensor clips -- to replace the plastic ones currently used to hold sensors in the thermostat housing. Big thanks to KBATTPO for that tip. :thumbup:
Junk Yard Bits
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/625/22105747779_a7af440fd6_c.jpg)
And I also picked up the clutch switch out of a MK4 Jetta. You can use one from a Mk3 as well -- the difference is the Mk3 will have a vacuum line attached for cruise control. Fits perfectly with the T4 pedal set. I had thought of leaving it out as I just don't really use cruise control -- but apparently the Motronic 7 ECU tempers throttle when the clutch is engaged (so gotta have it).
Clutch Switch MK4
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5630/22105751599_c63a1c0cc3_c.jpg)
Fitted Switch
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/717/22303122671_86fbb73904_c.jpg)
One thing I found interesting while rummaging in an old Passat -- was the shift knob looked very familiar...
Passat and EV Shift Knobs
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5718/21671530173_fb43910a96_c.jpg)
Identical to the EV shifter! :)
However, for the 02G setup though, I found this new through the local dealership for about $11.
02G Shift Knob
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5791/22104856878_a237908a3f_c.jpg)
02G w/reverse below 5th
Surely not necessary, but a nice touch and it will help keep Mrs.Itsamoto from getting stuck in the parking lot. :D
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Another lucky find.
Backstory from last weekend: So this weekend I went to look at a local 2002 GLS (~100k miles, one owner). The owned has replaced the iginition switch and got new keys with it -- but haven't adapted them to the immobilizer. So the car turns over and starts for one second and then cuts out -- seems like standard immo activation/deactivation. Well I thought I could outsmart the car -- I pulled apart covers around the steering wheel and the lower knee-panel so I could disconnect the iginition switch. Then I put the original van key into the ignition (to be read by the coil - it can't turn the cylinder) and then hot-wired the ignition switch. It cranks away tirelessly -- but no spark/fuel. Is there a tie-in to the fuel pump here that I have missed? I know on my Jetta, just getting into the car beqins a sequence of the priming the fuel pump (which I can hear). Is there something similar on the Eurovan?
2002 EV GLS
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5764/21750496154_a95e999f84_c.jpg)
So I went back to that van that I found locally and managed to get it started. I had called in a local "vw-tuner" to come and adapt the keys to the immobilizer for me, but he was unsuccessful. He used Vag-tacho (gosh that is such a bad name) to try and pull the SKC which is needed to login to VCDS when adapting new keys. No dice. We worked on if for a hour or so -- and he confessed he didn't know how to retrieve it from the Van (despite a couple days of researching it ahead of time). :banghead: I guess that pulling the SKC from these is not the cake walk I thought it would be.
Anyhow -- I took the keys with me and sat down for dinner. :beer: Using a small screwdriver, I was able to open up the existing key and split open the new key -- swapping the transponder chips. Returned to the car (one last time - I thought) -- and it started on the first try and I drove it home! Drivetrain is smooth! :thumbup:
Paid $2500 CDN -- for a one owner van with a scant 165k km (~103k miles) -- less than half the mileage that Lucille has on her! Owner is an older man and himself a Eurovan enthusiast -- this was his second Eurovan, the previous a 1992 LWB with double sliders that he had also bought new. He said he had to special order the van through the dealership as these years were so scarce in Canada -- paying $50k CDN for it back then (holy bad exchange rate). His family then used the van primarily for transporting their son who is wheel-chair bound - and that the van had transmission problems at 90k km and the dealership bungled the transmission repair job twice. The second time they used a rebuilt transmission and the torque converter "came apart" damaging both the engine and the transmission. So I guess the dealership ended up replacing the engine and he got a new transmission air-freighted in from Germany -- all about 40k km ago!!! Its almost too good to be true -- so I will have to get in there and see if I can find some build-date codes off of the transmission. :D
Now it's not all roses... the key issue is a good example of that. With 3 keys for the van -- the original can open the doors, and then one converted iginition key can be used to start the van. I'm going to have to get the keys properly adapted and then probably talk to a locksmith about getting matching lock cores.
New Ignition Switch
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/663/22373377535_f1b9efc1f0_c.jpg)
Covers still off from a night of trying everything I got to get her going.
Interior Folded Down
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5693/22360171022_3dabaa5361_c.jpg)
Notice blue seatbelt restraint on RHS -- used for wheelchaired passengers
Check out this awful rust patch on the drivers side -- easily the size of a softball.
Rust Ball
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5740/22185255420_2812660429_c.jpg)
The passenger area has four of these wheel chair tie downs installed - a good reason to rip out the rear carpet and install some rubber flooring.
Wheel Chair Tie Down
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/644/22360173812_d17ae93d00_c.jpg)
Interior is a bit worn as well -- here you can see the drivers seat cushion has been damaged -- there is basically a hole in the cushion where my finger is. I'll try pulling the seat cushion from one of the middle row captains chairs for a replacement.
Worn Drivers Seat Cushion
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5700/22373259105_fab2368e76_c.jpg)
Drivers side door arm-rest -- worn down to nothing. I guess some people really like to use this. :)
Worn Arm-rest
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/780/22185260670_49dde20844_c.jpg)
Some other issues inside (to be anticipated) -- 2 broken armrests, dirty carpet and enough dog hair to knit a sweater.
And last but not least, some nice bonuses that came along with the van. New filters -- Oil, Fuel, Air and Cabin. New centre-caps for the wheels. 1.5L of G12 coolant.
Filters!
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5704/21750501214_2f88ec5981_c.jpg)
Oh and I got this too -- hopefully I can transfer the license over. :thumbup:
Bentley EV DVD
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/716/22383999731_712fd10ddf_c.jpg)
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Great find, Itsamoto, congratz!
-albertr
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Great find, Itsamoto, congratz!
-albertr
Thanks A -- yes this was a lucky find. The owner has put a lot of money into dealership repairs -- and outfitting it for wheelchair. So I think when he replaced the ignition switch and couldn't get past the immobilizer (or stomach the $500 it would probably cost taking it to the dealer) - he was ready to let it go. Maybe I'm a bit naive to believe that both the engine and transmission were replaced without pressing for more proof -- so I will have to get in there and pull some serial numbers and build dates.
I've actually now got 3 EVs in the stable! About a month back, I happened to find a 2003 for $1k (bad transmission). I missed getting it for $450 by 20 min -- and then the new buyer researched about transmission replacement costs and contacted me a couple days later. :)
So I will either convert to manual (as I basically have a second set of the components) or renew with Lucille's old transmission. :)
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I spent some time last night cleaning the 2002 GLS that I picked up. Found some interesting things in the engine bay that I thought worth sharing. Mainly obvious stuff, but some of these things I'm starting to recognize as I keep seeing on other 24v EVs. :eek:
2002 VW EV GLS
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5669/22402859496_a8f09b943e_c.jpg)
First thing here, and I haven't seen if on my other vans, is this coolant leak from the throttle body. The hose at the top is the coolant return line, the supply line enters from underneath.
BTW - you can also sort of make out the corrosion setting in around the brake booster as well.
Leaking Coolant Hose
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/600/22415641052_43a827206e_c.jpg)
In the regular VR6 world -- the discussion of deleting these lines comes up now and then. Their purpose is to heat/warm the throttle body to prevent it from freezing and getting stuck -- ironically from the crankcase vapours that are fed in upstream. :mad: Since I'm re-routing my crankcase vapours to be downstream of the throttle body - I'm going to delete these lines and thin out some hoses. If you're in a hot climate -- I wouldn't lose any sleep at deleting this. In colder climates, unless you reroute the crankcase vapours I would leave it in. Either way, just make sure you clean the throttle body out once in a while.
From the garage -- here's a comparison of AXK and BDF throttle bodies (which I first cleaned a lot of oil grime out of).
Throttle Bodies
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/597/22250755839_8589bb60a7_c.jpg)
L-R: AXK version, BDF version
These are basically the same thing between the two platforms, the difference is in how the coolant lines are routed. At one end, there is common coolant exit/entry, at at the other end a option (at installation) of 3 different exits/entries. Before examining it, I imagined these "lines" would have been better integrated to the throttle body with less stand off. Honestly, it doesn't even look that effective in the first place! :)
As I'm in "delete" mode, I tried to pull the hose barbs with some vice-grips but they broke off and I ended up drilling them out. The other benefit of this delete, is it eliminates the need for the fragile T-connection that connects the supply line. :thumbup:
Throttle Body Coolant Line
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/729/22250929829_64096d4a89_c.jpg)
Barbs removed!
Back to the new van....
Here you can see the EVAP line that runs from the N80 valve to the intake looks "wet". Can I safely pressume that some leaking was happening here ? -- the van does throw a P0441 code when I scan it.
Leaking EVAP line?
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5786/22428856485_f394f94cf1_c.jpg)
This is where I want to reroute my crankcase vapours -- putting it downstream of the TB. On Lucille, my plan is to basically pull the EVAP hose barb from this part of the manifold-extension and replace it with a tapped fitting. Possibly a T or Y fitting to maintain the EVAP line.
And then, just like Lucille's engine, the oil filler tube is covered in a nice amount of oil. :mad: I take it that the cap also vents -- but this seems a little too common place. Anybody else seeing this on their own van? I take it that crank case gases are getting trapped up in the long tube and then venting through the cap. :mad:
Dirty Oil Filler Tube
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5633/22240909790_a8c25c8c9b_c.jpg)
And then, I haven't seen a van that doesn't have this yet....
Dirty Power Steering Fluid Tank
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5678/21807748273_d2bf49a60c_c.jpg)
Why is this? Crumby plastic components? Are the vans over pressurizing the line, is there too much fluid in the system? :mad:
From the garage, here's Lucille's leaky PS tank.
Lucille's Dirty Power Steering Fluid Tank
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5729/21815745814_01980e3a40_c.jpg)
Anyhow -- just some all to common break downs of the EV system. Anybody else seeing similar issues?
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Small update here.
Regarding the brake booster line -- seems very common that plastic hose dosen't last on the van. Lucille's was no exception -- I suspected a leak in the vacuum system for a while with the regular symptoms.
EV Brake Booster Line
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/749/22494223945_1a0384f191_c.jpg)
To remedy this, I plan on replacing the plastic line from the brake booster to the manifold with braided line -- and then rerouting some of the other vacuum items.
To start I'm replacing the hose barb/adapter that's on the brake booster itself. I ordered a check valve from Summit racing, here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1465 (http://"http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1465"). This will provide -6AN fitting to plumb off of - and at the manifold side I will pull the barb and thread in another adapter (possibly a T fitting).
Brake Booster Line Adapters
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5801/22480826002_e1c2dcbfce_c.jpg)
L-R: Plastic OEM adapter, Summit G1465 adapter
Swap the rubber grommets between the two -- and then the fit will be nice and snug with the brake booster.
Summit Adapter with Grommet swap
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5701/22505295681_8c36645a09_c.jpg)
And... here it is installed to the brake booster. Once the engine is back in, I will fit the braided line to length.
Summit Adapter in EV Brake Booster
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5816/22307403989_9872395c82_c.jpg)
It's a bit "bling" -- but I think its ok here because its actually replacing a prone-to-fail plastic item. There is probably a thousand other ways to do this (and many of them cheaper too) -- but this nicely permits both -AN fitting and check valve combined into one item. This also highlights one the benefits of the EV's engine manifold (vs the plastic BDF manifold) -- as it's aluminum makes it a bit more friendly to adapting the line fittings from barbs to something else.
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Thanks for the updates. I really like the brake booster mod. As I am still more familiar with Vanagons, the one thing that stands out in your post is that VW used plastic tanks for a long time (including the hot coolant tank) when a metal tank would have worked much better. Rocky Mountain Westy now makes a nice metal (aluminum) coolant expansion tank that some of the other major vendors are now selling. I hope this kind of upgrade is available in the future for us EV owners.
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Thanks for the updates. I really like the brake booster mod. As I am still more familiar with Vanagons, the one thing that stands out in your post is that VW used plastic tanks for a long time (including the hot coolant tank) when a metal tank would have worked much better. Rocky Mountain Westy now makes a nice metal (aluminum) coolant expansion tank that some of the other major vendors are now selling. I hope this kind of upgrade is available in the future for us EV owners.
Yes those all aluminum tanks sure look nice!
The coolant ball used on the VR6 was pretty much standard VW for a lot of models -- I am bit surprised a better one wasn't developed by a 3rd party (of maybe there is?).
Too bad for all us EV owners out there right?
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Would these be useful metal for plastic parts? https://www.ecstuning.com/News/VW_Volkswagen_MKIII_Jetta_Golf_B3_Passat_B4_Corrado_Eurovan_T4_VR6_12V_Aluminum_Water_Pipe_Kit_Housing_Eurowise_ECS_Thermostat_ORings_Cover_Adapter_1990_1991_1992_1993_1994_1995_1996_1997_1998_1999_2000/?salesrep=apasternak&utm_source=vortex&utm_medium=forum&utmcontent=apasternak&utm_campaign=newpost
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Would these be useful metal for plastic parts? https://www.ecstuning.com/News/VW_Volkswagen_MKIII_Jetta_Golf_B3_Passat_B4_Corrado_Eurovan_T4_VR6_12V_Aluminum_Water_Pipe_Kit_Housing_Eurowise_ECS_Thermostat_ORings_Cover_Adapter_1990_1991_1992_1993_1994_1995_1996_1997_1998_1999_2000/?salesrep=apasternak&utm_source=vortex&utm_medium=forum&utmcontent=apasternak&utm_campaign=newpost
Yes - I think these are a good (albeit expensive) upgrade. I've wanted this for a long time (and have mentioned here too) - but I'm a little short of funds for this "luxury" item. The housing alone in about $200 USD -- but being in Canada, with the exchange rate and no free shipping -- that balloons into a $300 part. >:(
Otherwise, I would love to get it. Not only does it get some plastic out of the system -- it also permits some cleaning up of the coolant lines and engine bay. Using this (or any 12v thermostat housing) provides a place to relocate the coolant temperature sensor (blue one at back of engine bay). Combine that with deleting the coolant line to the throttle body -- and some things start to clean up nicely.
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Something that has been bothering me for while -- with the access to Lucille's engine bay, I couldn't help but notice how much of mess the power steering system is. This stems from removing the engine and really getting access to all these other sub systems. You get greater access than ever before and you can inspect everything in the bay (for better or for worse).
The problem is multi-headed, but basically the PS system has leaked so much -- everything in the vicinity has some power steering fluid on in. I get that the ps pump is designed to build pressure in the system -- thats what aids/powers the steering rack. But it seems that this pressure also results in a lot of leaks. I honestly thought about dropping the power steering systems in favour of a "de-powered" setup or even just a manual rack -- and then I came to my senses that this is a van and power steering is probably a good thing.
The resevoir itself is major point of leaking -- its so dirty I can't tell if its leaking from the top or the bottom (probably both). Even the mounting bracket it attaches to was covered in PS fluid. :mad:
Power Steering Resevoir
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5729/21815745814_01980e3a40_c.jpg)
There are are other problems as well -- deeper into the system (closer to steering rack) the pressure line shows a leak.
Pressure Line
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5725/22658009765_c1360df67c_c.jpg)
Worst of all was the pump itself -- the supply line was leaking steadily and once I removed the pulley, I found a lot of twine wrapped around the pump shaft. Maybe this was something that got sucked up into the engine bay (I also found string around the water pump) - and hopefully not some homespun way of holding hoses out of danger. :mad:
Power Steering Pump
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5747/22658296045_aac757b0e9_c.jpg)
So I pulled the reservoir to start -- its held into the bracket via some clips at the the bottom and it should just slide out the top. For me that didn't work, so I drained it and then pried it out with flathead screwdriver. What a mess this thing is! Not sure what I will replace this with -- perhaps something off another car, maybe a diy container.
Reservoir Pulled
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/603/22669491771_69c9c0ed2c_c.jpg)
So why does this leak so much? I was asking this before and I think I know some of the answer to this now -- and its rather obvious. The first is that the system is under pressure -- and as JJvincent pointed out - overfilled from the factory. The second thing, obvious to me once I held the cap up to the light...
Power Steering Reservoir Cap
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5782/22658302625_c6ba2c247e_c.jpg)
Yep -- and tiny f'n hole in the middle of it. I never noticed it before because the cap was so completely covered in dried up power steering fluid. :laugh:
Beneath the cap -- there is a little breather filter. This works about as good as the crank case ventilation filter -- letting vapour crap escape.
Cap Filter
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/701/22658300575_b000718b8b_c.jpg)
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The twine that wrapped around the pump shaft is a pain. There is actually enough there to cause noticeable resistance when turning the pump by hand. So I removed the PS pump and compared it with the one I have from the GLI (which turns easily)-- just in case I need to use this.
Power Steering Pump Comparison
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5807/22658304675_b9cef70a29_c.jpg)
L-R: AXK pump, BDF pump
For the most part the pumps are probably interchangeable. Their mounts to the ancillary bracket are the same -- the pulley mount is the same. The pressure line outlet (the threaded port shown pointing up) is the same - same thread too so I can use the banjo bolt from Lucille. The only thing that presents a challenge is the supply line inlet -- on the AXK's it angles out towards the passenger side, where as the BDF version faces full on to the drivers side. I may try and pull the hose barb, tap the hole and then fit something like AN fitting that can hold the pressure and reroute the line. Deleting the PS fluid hard cooler-line is also a thought - if it helps with routing.
Specification wise, the pumps are slightly different. The AXK is rated for 106 BAR, and the BDF pump is rated for 100 BAR. So this might be a good thing -- a downgrade to lower line pressure in order to reduce the chance of leaks?
Pump Backs
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/720/22035527594_f5743f500d_c.jpg)
L-R: AXK pump, BDF pump
The AXK PS pump reminds me of the quality difference that I saw in comparing the original clutch throw out bearing with the available replacements -- where the original component is superior quality with tight tolerances in the casting, serviceable back and machined surfaces. The BDF PS pump (a Delphi?) is cast and unless there is something under that sticker, it cannot be opened up. Perhaps a nothing point (moot ;)) - because really, how many reasons can you find that require the pump to be opened and inspected? Still the ability to do that makes me think the original pump is better quality (for the reasons mentioned above). Where as the cast pump, I notice a small amount of fluid is visible through that back surface. Perhaps this is a left over from me storing it in a pile of oily parts, or perhaps a slow leak (and its not even under pressure yet!).
And finally, here is the pump pulled apart.
AXK PS Pump Disassembled
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/616/22470350420_963e58e3ac_c.jpg)
You can see how much twine I was able to pull off the shaft -- end to end thats at least a couple of feet. Unfortunately, after getting it all out , the pump was still somewhat difficult to turn and I suspect the bearing is shot and will need to be replaced.
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So I mentioned before that I wanted to run an oil catch can off the valve cover. I think it makes a lot of sense after seeing all the oil vapour sludge that gets into the manifold and throttle body -- not to mention what it did to Lucille's engine bay -- coating and destroying the van's original PCV hose and also draining oil upstream towards the MAF sensor.
Here's a flashback:
[INDENT]Damaged PCV Hose
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/411/18600569908_b62f78a662_c.jpg)
Oil Soaked MAF Sensor
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/345/18788352735_d0e1b535b1_c.jpg)[/INDENT]
Notice that the MAF is installed upside down? It's a nice little way to drain oil into all the hard to reach places of the engine bay. :mad:
So a catch can seems like a good idea not only to keep the intake components clean, after some sage advice from Eric D in the 24v 2.8L VR6 technical forum -- its also a good way to keep that oil sludge from accumulating inside the engine.
There are multiple ways to do this by running a hose in place of the PCV to the the catch can -- some involve just clamping a new hose to the barb, or you can remove the hose barb to fit an adapter. I have even seen a thread or two whereby the valve cover is cut open and modified for greater ventilation (and oil separation?). Lots of techniques -- there is no shortage of imagination. I went with the "after market" adapter route as I'd like to run some nice -AN fittings with some upgrade hoses eventually. I toyed with the idea of pulling the barb and threading the hole -- but the cost for the tap alone was going to much higher than the $15 adapter and the fitting probably wouldn't have worked as nice either.
So, here's what I ordered:
CTS -10AN Valve Cover Breather Adapter
(http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/images/products/cts-hw-0210.jpg)
Item page: http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/products/CTS_10AN_Valve_Cover_Breather_Adapter_For_06A_1_8T-4839-581.html (http://"http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/products/CTS_10AN_Valve_Cover_Breather_Adapter_For_06A_1_8T-4839-581.html")
CTS Turbo lists these as for 1.8t engines, but I called them and asked that they measure the diameter of the input side which was a clean 20mm. Which makes this the same as the one offered by Integrated Engineering (http://"http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-10an-valve-cover-breather-adapter-24v-vr6") (specified for 24v VR6) but for $5 less.
The interesting thing is that the IE page describes the install as just a press-in fit. As I have 2 extra BDF valve covers just lying around, I decided to measure things first. I pulled the hose barb with some lock pliers and true to form the inside diameter was pretty much 20.0mm. A quick test on the BDF valve cover confirmed it was going to be a push-to-fit adapter. However, when I went to install on AXK valve cover -- its actually like 0.1mm larger in diameter and so the fit was looser.
Valve Cover Adapter and AXK Hose Barb
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5755/22268884573_852369c918_c.jpg)
Here's why I think the adapter would actually work better than threading in another adapter... If you look at this picture, it shows (from the inside) the outlet hole where the hose barb is pressed in.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5701/22864098106_45dede425f_z.jpg)
And then with the adapter sitting in place (sorry lame photo) - you can see that the adapter's depth is also a perfect match for the valve cover. Some the options I was pursuing with tapping and threading an adapter in -- would have further protruded into the valve cover by probably .125-.75" -- restricting the vapour flow.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5676/22890065275_e01a9c8b14_z.jpg)
And installed to the valve cover, I used some cold weld to create the seal and make up the 0.1mm difference.
Breather Adapter Installed
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/668/22876598102_2c1a9668c6_c.jpg)
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Here's a picture of cracked PCV hose off my 2001 EVC:
(http://www.iral.com/~albertr/EVC/breather_hose_cracked.jpg)
No way I'm paying VW $95 for this plastic hose! Putting back the old hose with some bandage applied:
(http://www.iral.com/~albertr/EVC/breather_hose.jpg)
I was out of black caulk... ;D
-albertr
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Great pictures! That metal screen behind cam housing - I just removed it and run my AXK without it. I'm not really sure why they ever try to filter the motor oil supplied to cam adjusters...
-albertr
Just noticed that I've clocked 13K miles after chains replacement on my AXK. So it looks like it's running fine so far without this nasty brittle little screen.
-albertr
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Well a small milestone today... I pulled out most of the automatic transmission wiring and the gear selector. I was looking at doing it earlier, but always seem to find another thing that was bit more important at the moment. Funny how something as simple as a hole in the floor can feel like progress. :)
01P Wiring Harness and TCU
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/641/21944821752_6b0f21aa33_c.jpg)
After struggling with it for a while -- I pulled the transmission computer module first, which left lots of room to feed the harness through. It also helps to bend the wiring panel holder out of the way too. ;D
Transmission Computer Cave
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5827/21336473043_9397a69695_c.jpg)
Then everything can simply be disconnected - no need yet to rip anything out from the back of the wiring panel.
What I haven't removed -- is this little bit of wiring from the automatic selector - it routes back the wiring panel under the carpet. The open connector is probably for for the shift lock solenoid -- but there is also a little "limit" switch here as well -- not sure what this is. Any ideas?
Transmission selector wiring
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5715/21930892386_d5927531a0_c.jpg)
Itsamoto, since you went thru the process of removing A/T on your EV, I want to check with you on A/T wiring... I'm thinking on modding my 2001 EVC to do automatic door locking/unlocking as a winter weekend project. I'm planning to use some programmable micro-controller to supply +12DVC via relays to actuators ( good write-up on how actuators work is available here: http://www.gowesty.com/tech-article-details.php?id=46 ). Just need to figure out the logic when to engage locking-unlocking.
I think either of the following would work for this purpose:
- read whether transmission in the park mode
- read whether transmission in the reverse gear
- receive notification when A/T transmission switches gears
- read the current vehicle speed from the ECU (if it's ether possible).
- read the current gear selection from ECU or TCM
I think the first two options might be easiest, just need to figure out its schematics. Any thoughts?
-albertr
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Itsamoto, since you went thru the process of removing A/T on your EV, I want to check with you on A/T wiring... I'm thinking on modding my 2001 EVC to do automatic door locking/unlocking as a winter weekend project. I'm planning to use some programmable micro-controller to supply +12DVC via relays to actuators ( good write-up on how actuators work is available here: http://www.gowesty.com/tech-article-details.php?id=46 ). Just need to figure out the logic when to engage locking-unlocking.
I think either of the following would work for this purpose:
- read whether transmission in the park mode
- read whether transmission in the reverse gear
- receive notification when A/T transmission switches gears
- read the current vehicle speed from the ECU (if it's ether possible).
- read the current gear selection from ECU or TCM
I think the first two options might be easiest, just need to figure out its schematics. Any thoughts?
-albertr
Hi Albert,
Sorry for the late reply. I really don't think I can be of much help with this -- but I'm sure it could be figured out with the schematic. I hadn't read that GoWesty article before -- and now (thanks to you) I know that I should make sure the passenger side door lock actuator is set to slave. And I know this from experience after getting myself locked out Lucille (while she was running) at -30C for 1 hour. >:(
I assume you want the doors to lock when the van begins to move, but not necessarily unlock just because you put into park? There is some logic there that needs to be worked out -- otherwise you could just tie into Park-Nuetral-Position relay (J226) that is located in the lower part of the centre dash console. Tied in, you could have it so once the van is shifted out of park (and the PNP relay opens) -- that the doors could lock automatically. But in doing so without another logic -- would this mean everytime you put the van into park (with the ignition on) the van would unlock? Hmmmm... I don't know. :D
That being said -- if there is one thing I would really like for somebody to figure out is to make the rear hatch release on command. Maybe its not so useful, but all my other VW's of this vintage all have a separate hatch/trunk release which I find very useful (or I'm conditioned to expect) -- with 3 button key fobs vs 2 button for the EV. :)
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+1 on the back latch mod... I really like the automatic opening / closing doors on the dodge caravan / chrysler town and country.... And I think there was a mercury minivan in late nineties that also has this feature. Wireless activation of open/close mechanism by a keyfob though in newer dodge minivans is Sooo Freaking nice... And convenient, and impresses people too!!
...tapped out with just a thumb
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Hi Albert,
Sorry for the late reply. I really don't think I can be of much help with this -- but I'm sure it could be figured out with the schematic. I hadn't read that GoWesty article before -- and now (thanks to you) I know that I should make sure the passenger side door lock actuator is set to slave. And I know this from experience after getting myself locked out Lucille (while she was running) at -30C for 1 hour. >:(
I assume you want the doors to lock when the van begins to move, but not necessarily unlock just because you put into park? There is some logic there that needs to be worked out -- otherwise you could just tie into Park-Nuetral-Position relay (J226) that is located in the lower part of the centre dash console. Tied in, you could have it so once the van is shifted out of park (and the PNP relay opens) -- that the doors could lock automatically. But in doing so without another logic -- would this mean everytime you put the van into park (with the ignition on) the van would unlock? Hmmmm... I don't know. :D
That being said -- if there is one thing I would really like for somebody to figure out is to make the rear hatch release on command. Maybe its not so useful, but all my other VW's of this vintage all have a separate hatch/trunk release which I find very useful (or I'm conditioned to expect) -- with 3 button key fobs vs 2 button for the EV. :)
Sorry, haven't been on the forum for a while and just saw your post. I think hooking up to J226 relay would be all that I need. Can program some delay into micro-controller, but it doesn;t need to be sophisticated. Thanks for suggestion!
-albertr
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+1 on the back latch mod... I really like the automatic opening / closing doors on the dodge caravan / chrysler town and country.... And I think there was a mercury minivan in late nineties that also has this feature. Wireless activation of open/close mechanism by a keyfob though in newer dodge minivans is Sooo Freaking nice... And convenient, and impresses people too!!
...tapped out with just a thumb
I wonder if we could just take the mechanism out of a BMW e39 touring or similar car and pop it into ours.
Ideally I wish we could work with GoWesty or a similar T4 outfit to work with Stabilus to make a power hatch retrofit possible. Their Powerise system (used in most OEM applications) would work great.
http://www.aliexpress.com/popular/electric-tailgate.html
There are some kits here.
I think this is a possible retrofit. One would need to retrofit an additional rfid/nfc chip into the keyfob or have and extra rfid/nfc chip on the keychain. While we're at it lets retrofit electric sliding doors: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:G743AviPT4YJ:www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php%3Ft%3D181725+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
He used to have a video on YouTube but has since taken it down.
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Itsamoto, just want to check in, looking forward to see more updates on your progress!
Do you have any pictures of water pumps used on AXK and BDF VR6's? I'm curious to see what are the stamping on these pumps? Are they VAG-branded or supplied by third party?
-albertr
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Itsamoto, just want to check in, looking forward to see more updates on your progress!
Do you have any pictures of water pumps used on AXK and BDF VR6's? I'm curious to see what are the stamping on these pumps? Are they VAG-branded or supplied by third party?
-albertr
Hi Albert
Sorry for the lack of updates on the van -- too many side projects. I really am hung up on the suspension because to come this far this many things removed from the van, it should be a no brainer to just refurb it all while I am there but I can't find the courage (or space) to pull all of it out. Ideally I would sand blast the crud off it- then powder coat or paint it to protect it from rusting. At the moment there is a lot of crud which looks bad, but it seems to be mostly surface oxidization. I'm thinking hard on the Power-flex bushings as well - but its pretty pricey.
As for the water pumps, I did take some pictures of them, which I'm not sure if I ever shared. The pumps are the same, save for the pulley (which accounts for the different offsets between the two engines). On hand I had 2 plastic impeller pumps and one metal impeller. The plastic ones are actually the OEM VW and they are stamped (both the pump-housing and the pulley). The pump housing with the plastic impeller reads as PN# 022-121-019. The metal impeller pump is on the engine, so I will have to dig a bit to get the number (I'm interested now too).
From my other VW's, I'm confident in using the metal impeller pump on Lucille (I don't recall which engine I got it off of - I think it was Lucille's original engine). The plastic impellers, in theory should work fine and have less wear on the bearing -- but after time the plastic impeller becomes so brittle that it just crumbles in your hand once you start touching it. Very common on this vintage of VW's that a plastic impeller is used and stories of overheating cars due to an impeller which sheds it fins! Now, would that actually happen inside a sealed working engine? -- I don't know perhaps, there are many claims of this happening. The plastic impeller would fail 100% though if a foreign object got into the coolant stream and travelled to the pump.
Here's some pics to share on the differences:
Water Pumps
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/263/19380170263_cc40fc770a_c.jpg)
L-R: AXK, BDF
Water Pump Pulley Offset Difference
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/1/334/19974902956_45f8e3e19d_c.jpg)
L-R: AXK, BDF
The pulleys are actually about the same thickness, its just the mounting face heights differ a lot:
Pulleys off Pump
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/544/19993409262_a59fe75b29_c.jpg)
Water Pump Impellers
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/1/445/20001153995_fe31b79468_c.jpg)
L-R: Metal impeller, Plastic impeller
Platic Impeller w/broken fins
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/388/19814470159_b526bb3240_c.jpg)
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Thanks, Itsamoto! I believe AXK engines on EuroVan's were using pumps with metal impellers. I was given the following P/N - 021-121-004 which supposedly has metal impellers, but no VW dealers stock them locally, so I cannot verify.
P/N 022-121-019 with plastic impellers - probably ones which were used on Golf/Jetta's with BDF engine?
Looking forward to seeing updates on Lucille project!
-albertr
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Blue Clock Clusters
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/568/22179931706_cf7ea0ef43_c.jpg)
Top to Bottom: Automatic Eurovan Canadian-market, Manual Jetta Canadian-market -- different but the same.
Ok here is some interesting and new stuff regarding the Eurovan "blue clock" cluster. There really isn't much out there on this (as far as I can tell) - there is a thread from back in '04 where some guys were trying to swap an EV cluster into a Cabrio. Interestingly they noted how similar the late model EV was to the 3.5 Cabrio in terms of interior (switches etc) -- sort of caught between Mk3 and Mk4 style evolutions. Maybe this cluster swap info needs its own thread -- an interesting topic that could be fleshed out more. Its actually one of my favourite things about this generation of VW - the blue/red cluster. I've owned a couple of Mk4 Jettas and B5.5 Passat (with a MAF cluster) and now 2 vans -- so the blue cluster feels "right" to me, its second nature.
As Lucille is originally an American-market van, it's cluster face is predominantly imperial "miles" and here, I would prefer it to be in KM. It sort helps keep the speeding tickets down. :laugh: So shortly after I bought the van - I was collecting parts (rear bench headrests of course) for the van and the seller happened to have a Canadian-market van and had swapped the cluster out for an imperial cluster. So yay for me - metric cluster! I used the famous page from the UK T4 group as a basis for verifying what I was going to buy (Linkage: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86937 (http://"http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86937")).
So I've had that Canadian-EV cluster on the shelf for quite a while - and never got around to installing it. Then when I parted the 03 MK4 GLI -- I kept the cluster, key and ECU as I knew it was a mated set (for immobilizer 3). Well just on a hunch, I thought we should put these clusters side by side to see if there was more than just a resemblance and see if they were swappable. This works for me as I;m going to a manual setup, but the principle is the same for all the other late-model vans out there - because it means finding a metric or imperial cluster is that much easier, and now you can upgrade to trip computer and nav-integrated clusters as well (such as the MAF and FIS models). I'm not going to touch the material around immobilizer 2 and 3 -- or how to reprogram or delete the immobilizer here. I don't know it well enough -- and there are plenty of good writeups on it that have been generated by hyper-miling tdi fanatics. The trip computers here allow all that fancy mileage tracking, and fuel estimations to be made -- although this mod also requires a special stock-arm that allows the driver to interface with the computer. Worth exploring - this is a good upgrade - Link: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=48366 (http://"http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=48366")
So here is a quick swap using my two extra clusters to look at...
Looking at the cluster shape -- the plastic lens are at such dramatically different angles, and the overall shape seems so much different, different mounting tabs, etc -- that you would think these are two different animals. But if you look at them from behind, they use the same connections, and the cluster actually splits in half (front/back) and that's what makes the cluster swap possible. BTW - these are both VDO made clusters, apparently there are also Bosch-made blue clusters (MAF and FIS models I suspect).
Rear Harness Connection
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5824/22216368481_431bdfd991_c.jpg)
Top to Bottom: Eurovan Canadian-market, Jetta Canadian-market
Cluster Case Clips
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/653/22179933046_943d3477d4_c.jpg)
Top to Bottom: Eurovan Canadian-market, Jetta Canadian-market
Lined up back to back -- there are 4 clips along the top, and then (not shown) there are 2 clips on the bottom and then 2 T10 screws on the side that hold/separate the front fascia half from the cluster electronics half.
Cluster Electronics
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/606/21585021433_a684358afc_c.jpg)
Top to Bottom: Eurovan Canadian-market, Jetta Canadian-market
So for me -- this swap basically gets me metric and drops the transmission selector display (it will also align my milage indicator with the motor). And if you didn't know this yet, but those cluster faces are removable - and there are bunches of after-market customizable clock faces available for the Mk4 platform.
Now there are some differences to these in terms of warning lights/locations - but I think the addressing is the same (so less of an issue). I used a flash light and peeled the face plates up enough to illuminate the panel.
Where the EV has this...
Eurovan EPC dash light
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5714/22019153549_d527cd4b8d_c.jpg)
The MK4 has this...
Mk4 Immobilzer dash light
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/774/22193326332_8042529937_c.jpg)
And, where the EV has this...
Eurovan: 6 warning lights in "centre"
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5652/22017972570_4ef483afe5_c.jpg)
The MK4 has this...
Mk4: 8 warning lights in "centre"
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/601/22017973720_c002d7c863_c.jpg)
The extras here being "door open", "hood open" and "bulb out indicator" .
Guess we'll have to wait and see if these will stay out if I install it in the van. :)
And finally... swap the front fascia and snap it back together....
Manual cluster for EV
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/643/21583283704_79201da05b_c.jpg)
EDIT -- I just noticed that on the new assembly -- that the control knobs are longer on the MK4 cluster and so stick out even further (+ 8-10mm) on the EV fascia. Certainly something that can be easily swapped as well.
It's interesting to see how many varieties of these dashboard clusters VW is using on these vans. Something was bothering me for awhile, but I just recently realized that there's no "open door" indicator light available on the cluster used in my 2001 EVC (Winnebago conversion)... Doh!
-albertr
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It's interesting to see how many varieties of these dashboard clusters VW is using on these vans. Something was bothering me for awhile, but I just recently realized that there's no "open door" indicator light available on the cluster used in my 2001 EVC (Winnebago conversion)... Doh!
-albertr
On a second thought, maybe I just got a blown bulb in the cluster? Will have to take a look to see why it's not coming up when opening doors.
-albertr
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On a second thought, maybe I just got a blown bulb in the cluster? Will have to take a look to see why it's not coming up when opening doors.
-albertr
The open door signal is only on that mk4 cluster I was playing with.
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Thanks, Itsamoto. In case you are replacing the old water pump in Lucille, which brand you will be using as a replacement? It looks like VAG don't stock new EuroVan water pumps in the US anymore (original P/N 021121004A), all they have are re-manufactured ones (P/N 021121004X) according to local VW dealer. Not sure if it's the same in Canada, thou. I feel abit hesitant of using a re-manufactured part, but quality of aftermarket (Hepa, Febi, Meyle, Graft, etc) makes me worry.
-albertr
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Has anyone upgraded their entire eurovan dash to the 03 style to run an mk4 cluster? My 97 square style is looking really dated
Inscribed with just two thumbs...
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Thanks, Itsamoto. In case you are replacing the old water pump in Lucille, which brand you will be using as a replacement? It looks like VAG don't stock new EuroVan water pumps in the US anymore (original P/N 021121004A), all they have are re-manufactured ones (P/N 021121004X) according to local VW dealer. Not sure if it's the same in Canada, thou. I feel abit hesitant of using a re-manufactured part, but quality of aftermarket (Hepa, Febi, Meyle, Graft, etc) makes me worry.
-albertr
This GEBA one might fit the bill: http://www.urotuning.com/Water-Pump-24v-VR6-p/022121011.htm
A rebuilt one can't be all that bad though -- which means there must be a non-destructive method to replacing the bearing. Something worth figuring out. I'm in the metal impeller camp though -- having seen how easily the plastic impeller fins break.
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Has anyone upgraded their entire eurovan dash to the 03 style to run an mk4 cluster? My 97 square style is looking really dated
Inscribed with just two thumbs...
I'm pretty certain our friends across the pond do this -- google VW T4 blue clock conversion. It's all in the semantics - calling them "blue clocks". :D
http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=85919
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Awesome!!! All I need is a new cluster surround. Same dash
Inscribed with just two thumbs...
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Here is what I got from my kit for the hydraulic line. I put the throw-out bearing housing there as well to see the whole line (minus the master clutch cylinder).
02G Clutch Hydraulic Lines
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/19840124973_fa8468af25_b.jpg)
Now from what I gather, looking at ETKA diagrams and what not -- it looks like I have an extra line included here (the long twisty line shown centre bottom). Otherwise, starting from the bottom right corner, going counter clockwise, the items are:
Pressure pipe 701721461E (goes from clutch master cylinder and passes through firewall) -- has the firewall pass grommet on it.
The top line shown here is actually an assembly of different parts as well.
There is an T connection housing(701721451A), that receives the first pressure pipe line. This T-junction also has bleed valve on it. Looking at ETKA -- this appears to be an optional fitting. From here a short run of pressure pipe (701721462A) connects into a black coupler (no part number) and then to a long pressure line with a flexible portion. This pressure pipe is a variation of part number 7D1721477D - -but which variation probably depends on your transaxle's code. That line then connects to a coupler - shown top left -- that connects the pressure line assembly to the clutch slave cylinder.
Regarding the clutch line... Vw doesn't make the line for the eurovan 5sp anymore. So I had a ss line made from Parker hoses and fittings. For my 1.9tdi, 02d setup the line is 30" long with 2 90 degree m12.1 fittings. One fitting is offset by 90 degrees.
I also replaced all my brake lines to ss while I was doing this.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170405/378c249b9f572e87005e75dc501ea765.jpg)
just 2 thumbs, beware typos
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hey, any progress on your swap??? I still didn't figure out the coding for ESP, ABS...
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Hi,
I am new to the forum and welcome any advise on my project. I have a 1997 Eurovan full camper and am doing a 5 speed swap I got from Thomas at Quality German. All the conversion is done and it works perfectly but I am getting a check engine light. In NY I cant get it inspected until that clears. The shop said its getting a mil which trips the check engine light and code p1613. They reprogrammed the computer to manual and is at a loss of how to clear it. Would you have any suggestions?
I look forward to your thoughts.
Thanks Marc
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Regarding the clutch line... Vw doesn't make the line for the eurovan 5sp anymore. So I had a ss line made from Parker hoses and fittings. For my 1.9tdi, 02d setup the line is 30" long with 2 90 degree m12.1 fittings. One fitting is offset by 90 degrees.
I also replaced all my brake lines to ss while I was doing this.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170405/378c249b9f572e87005e75dc501ea765.jpg)
just 2 thumbs, beware typos
My kit didn't include the hose and I'll need to get one made. I see your hose has male ends where as the slave and hose through firewall from master also have male ends. what did you use to adapt the line? thinking of trying to order with female ends.