*

Offline Phaeton

  • **
  • 68
  • 2
  • Enthusiast.
    • View Profile
PSA: Check your chains!
« on: July 11, 2016, 03:53:38 pm »
While my father was going to work, the van lost all power - steering, brakes, engine, everything. Luckily he was only doing about 20-25 MPH at the time and managed to pull it into a grassy area safely.

Van was towed to the local VW dealership - where we were informed that the engine is toast. Okay, more specifically the timing chain guide snapped, timing chain stretched, and poof - bent valves and no compression on one of the cylinders.

Feels like a huge punch to the gut, not only because everyone in my family is obsessed with the car, but because I spent a long time adding the bi-xenon headlights, OEM double-din re-bar and re-doing the HVAC foam (all done last May). I was surprised that the engine failed in this manner since even the VW mechanic who looked at the car just a few weeks ago was surprised to hear of the news. I remember being advised to do that chains at some point but was told it didn't need to be done immediately. No rattling noises were detected by him. Oh well, retrospectively the timing chain service would have been done as well as the VCG and plugs.

EDIT: Engine swap options?
1. Do the AXK engine again? ($6000 w/new chains, with 5 yr warranty via dealer)
2. BDF engine?
3. Possible to put in a 1.8T BEA?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 12:38:07 pm by Phaeton »

*

Offline Itsamoto

  • ****
  • 275
  • 14
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2016, 01:39:12 pm »
This is rotten news - but yes a BDF will work if you transfer over the Eurovan's ancillary components.

Can the head be rebuilt? If you've redone the HVAC and installed the dash subframe -- those are no small feats -- you could probably do the head too -- you got nothing to lose (and everything to gain) to try.

I have pulled apart a BDF head this was damaged -- and I can part-forward you any used valves or valve-train parts that you need for the head. Keeps the costs down - just let me know.

The lights look awesome btw.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 01:43:23 pm by Itsamoto »

*

Offline albertr

  • ***
  • 202
  • 8
    • View Profile
    • my 2001 EVC
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2016, 03:46:00 pm »
Phaeton, sorry to hear that. Does  $6K AXK engine swap from dealership come with a new engine? If so, that might not be too bad price. If they are using a used engine from nearest graveyard, I'd look elsewhere.  If you have some spare time and dedication, swapping the engine as a DIY project is definitely doable.

-albertr

*

Offline Phaeton

  • **
  • 68
  • 2
  • Enthusiast.
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2016, 05:06:44 pm »
itsmoto: Good to know that the BDF will work. I'm considering purchasing a crashed Golf GTi with the BDF engine. Its a shame the Audi (AMU, APX, BAM, BEA) 1.8T wouldn't fit and work with the automatic 4 speed in the van. 222hp turbocharged four seems like a better fit than the VR6. According to the dealer the head is trashed, cylinder 1 doesn't hold any compression. I didn't get a chance to take a picture of the lights in operation at night, but they are quite bright and the high beams with the bi-xenons and LED lights on are extremely bright. Next time I'm near the van I'll get some night shots. I'm thrilled that the van finally had good lights and fully working HVAC.

I'm thousands of miles away from the van and won't be back for months, plus an engine swap way out of my skill level. I'd need someone else to help me.

$6k is for a salvage engine, complete chain job, misc parts, labor, and 5 year warranty on parts and labor - the engine is about $2800 of that $6000 figure.

Honestly, thats the lowest quote I received. Everyone else seems to be quoting anywhere from $8k-12k for more or less the same job - with a salvage engine!

I have no idea where to get a better price on this job.

If only this engine :http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENGINE-LONG-BLOCK-2004-VW-R32-3-2L-BJS-CODE-137000-MILES-TESTED-MK4-VR6-/131834473983 would drop in seamlessly. Would the transmission even take it?


*

Offline lotus54

  • *
  • 32
  • 3
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2016, 06:04:23 pm »
Unless they pulled head I don't know how they can say the head is trashed.
   I've seen bent valves In lots of engines and most of them were relatively easy to fix.
 A tiny bend in one valve will pretty much drop the compression to nothing.

Now- it could be trashed. And maybe the VR6 engine tends to destroy the head with a bent valve. I don't know these engines  very well.

I need to do the chains on my 2000- just need to set aside enough time! (Flat rate is 17 hours)

Mark
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 09:48:18 am by lotus54 »

*

Offline robinson1509

  • ***
  • 105
  • 2
  • Camps in backyard!
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2016, 09:58:02 pm »
Well assuming your block is good, and if you could overhaul it yourself parts and machine work new chains valves etc...  would probably be around 3 to 4k. Not including labor for the week you would spend hunched over the engine and laying on your back covered in grease. It would be money in your pocket but... If you dont have the time or motivation there are a lot of nice ev's out there for 8 to 12k you just have to look. I know from experience the valves can destroy the pistons and the head when the chains fail but I would want to see before I gave up on an engine. It would not make much sense to pay near book value price for repairs on any vehicle, however the mechanic doing an overhaul on a vr6 eurovan is certainly earning his money.
If you decided to do it yourself you woluld be hard pressed to find another engine overhaul that is more challenging or more rewarding.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 10:23:07 pm by robinson1509 »

*

Offline Phaeton

  • **
  • 68
  • 2
  • Enthusiast.
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 12:59:04 am »
Mark: I don't know what techniques where used to determine the state of the head, all I know is what the service adviser told me. I'll try to pry out more information.

robinson: We are past the point of it making sense to make repairs - we've made upgrades and repairs not because it makes any semblance of financial sense - but merely because we like the van. Perhaps a more pragmatic approach will be taken, not completely sure yet. FWIW, ours is a GLS, so functionally its the same a Sienna or Odyssey for most people.

I asked a similar question a few months back before I knew an engine replacement would be necessary and Cole had some great insight:


I put a ton of research into this when I swapped my first every Eurovan 24V VR6 out.

The conclusion I came to was that you could use the 3.2L block with the 2.8L 24V head from the Eurovan using custom head studs (available). This would give you the ability to use all the stock intake components.

You would want to scale the size of the injectors up slightly for the added displacement. The computer will take care of the rest. (it will have no idea there is an extra 400cc of displacement).

The big issue I found at the time was simply the cost of the Touareg and Cayenne Engines. People seem to think they are made of unobtainium even though they are the least desirable in those platforms.

I found the engine below,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/04-05-PORSCHE-CAYENNE-ENGINE-3-2L-VIN-A-5TH-DIGIT-135193-/142051816576?fits=Make%3APorsche&hash=item2112f2b480:g:PPQAAOSw7s5Xg-rG&vxp=mtr

Now I just need to find the custom head studs (whatever those are!) and find out the appropriate injector size (another unknown!!).

Plus I'd need to find someone willing to do this work - most people don't want to touch custom builds. Plus that 5 year warranty would be gone. But the engine would be a touch newer and I wonder if it'd be of a better build than the AXK.

EDIT: Apparently the 5 year warranty doesn't apply to the motor that they found. Apparently this has neither parts nor labor warranty. Yikes.
EDIT2: Oops, buying the porsche engine wouldn't work since my head is bad, and that's the part i'd need to mate with the cayenne motor. Found a complete AXK motor in Oregon for $2800 w/1yr parts and labor warranty.
EDIT3: If I have the dealer swap in a new engine without chains its about $5k, with chains its about $6k. There's a VW dealer - Autobarn Motorsports in Evanston, IL that put in an R32 engine into the van. Here's a link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-EuroVan-MV-Standard-Passenger-Van-3-Door-/391460259476?forcerrptr=true&hash=item5b24d98694:g:gAcAAOSwboVXO9So&item=391460259476

I'm going to try to contact them tomorrow to see if they can either do the same for us or if they can help advise my local dealer on how to do the same. I have no idea what they'll ask, but it seems kind of a waste to spend $6k on a VR6 2.8L with 120K+ mi. If anyone knows of a shop around Central Ohio that can help me tackle this - let me know!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 06:57:57 pm by Phaeton »

*

Offline robinson1509

  • ***
  • 105
  • 2
  • Camps in backyard!
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2016, 01:04:54 pm »
Awesome! I am the same way, don't get me wrong i am extremely frugal, but when it comes to my ev money isnt usally a concideration.


« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 01:10:56 pm by robinson1509 »

*

Offline Mike

  • *
  • 13
  • 1
  • Camps in backyard!
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2016, 08:35:41 pm »
If you are considering the 3.2 block/2.8 head, you might check with these guys, they have a universal head stud set that might work: http://www.ngpracing.com/newstore/volkswagen/golf-gti-jetta-beetle/mk4/2.8-vr6-3.2-r32/engine-en-5/engine-block-components-en-12/

IIRC the 2.8 and 3.2 both have head bolts, not studs, which makes things a bit tricky as the bolts are precisely sized with shank and threaded section lengths.  Not sure if a stud would work, but maybe, if not you'd have to have ARP or someone similar make up a set of custom bolts. 

Obviously the head height is different, with the 2.8 being shorter than the 3.2.  Are the head bolts bigger in diameter on the 3.2?  If they are then you'd have to have the 2.8 head bolt holes bored out to match the 3.2 head, as you couldn't do anything about the size of the threaded holes in the 3.2 block. 

- Michael
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 06:39:00 am by mls64 »

*

Offline Phaeton

  • **
  • 68
  • 2
  • Enthusiast.
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2016, 05:51:28 pm »
All the shops near the van seem to be unwilling to install either the R32 engine (my preference), or the 3.2 block and 2.8 head. So I'm going with the dealer's option - I'm finding the 2.8L AXK myself and then having them install it.

Really disappointed that the R32 install didn't go through.

EDIT: Remanufactured VR6 has been ordered. Total cost installed will be about $7500. Or about $2000 more than a used working GLS. Why go with the new motor? Because the used motors were about $3000 shipped, plus $1300 for the timing chain job, then roughly $2000 for the install. I'd gladly pay $1200 extra for a new motor. Plus, 1y/12k warranties for the used motors were $800 - rendering the cost differential at only $400.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 10:38:10 pm by Phaeton »

*

Offline Phaeton

  • **
  • 68
  • 2
  • Enthusiast.
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 04:12:11 am »
Van was picked up yesterday, new motor is much quieter than the old one. However the transmission is holding the gears much longer than before, not sure why. Would a TCM reset fix matters?

*

Offline Phaeton

  • **
  • 68
  • 2
  • Enthusiast.
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2017, 07:13:11 am »
Whelp. Luckily the VW reman engine had a 1 year warranty.

Dealer informed me yesterday that the van has a leaking head gasket. How can that happen on a reman long block after only a few thousand miles?

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 07:40:45 am by Phaeton »

*

Offline Cawes

  • *
  • 3
  • 0
  • Camps in backyard!
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Check your chains!
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2021, 09:36:15 am »
Your car may already have a damaged engine when you bought it. Check out the vin accident check, I did this decode Ford VIN and found a lot of flaws.