[Itsamoto]

Shown with 228mm SMF clutch assembly from 12v VR6


Successful test fit of the 228mm SMF from a 12v VR6. I picked up a new flywheel yesterday morning, and happened to have a used pressure plate and disc to complete the mock up.
Everything spun nicely inside the housing. Now, I just need to do a little more work to determine if the starter pinion will throw out far enough as the starter ring on the SMF is closer to the block than two DMF's (which were spot on for distance). Might have to put the starter on a bench, juice it with 12v and measure the throw.

IAT-USA.com have all the little parts needed to refurbish and convert Bosch starters.

[Itsamoto]

A small update in regards to Lucille's oil system...

As coked and sludged up as Lucille's engine was -- it also meant a lot of part cleaning needed to take place before reassembly. There was no way that I wanted any part of that mess to be transferred - so everything had to be cleaned: valve cover, oil pan, oil sump pump, timing chain covers, etc. If it was coming off the block or getting transferred to the good BDF - it was cleaned as best as I could.

Without a parts washer or decent sandblasting setup -- I basically used sand paper, scotch pads, and an assortment of small brushes in combination with vinegar, soapy water, degreaser, mineral spirits, and even Easy-Off oven cleaner. At one point I used a siphon fed air gun to soda blast some off some parts - which works ok but makes a huge white cloud that scares the neighbours.

AXK Oil Pump Housing

Note the imprompto table: a Costco 3-step ladder that I carry in the van for reaching the roof.

Oil Pump Components

Lot of coke build-up was removed internally from suction and pressure tubes.

Other than the lower pump housing -- with the pickup tube -- all the other parts of the pump are the same as the BDF. The pump from the good BDF was comparitively in pristine (clean) condition -- and I intended to save time on the cleaning by just swapping the lower housings However, there is one bolt to these that really gave me the fits. The oil pump housing is held together by 5 bolts, one of which is located within a recessed part of the upper housing casting. On all three pumps - this recessed area was always clogged with oil -- and of course I stripped the bolt head off of the good clean pump. Very tricky to get at - so be careful if you're cleaning the oil pump.

Oil Pump Recessed Bolt

Stripped bolt head on right side.

BTW -- Am I the only one who regularly strips 5mm hex bolts? Any other size of hex bolt and I am good to go. Maybe my collection of 5mm bits are done.

Oil pan cleaned too. You can see some of my cleaning tools  - a tooth brush and an o-ring pick to get some of the really stubborn bits off. 

AXK Oil Pan

[albertr]

I would pay extra attention to this metal mesh screen on the oil pick-up tube. On my AXK after cleaning it, I didn't notice how badly it was contaminated until I looked thru it to the light. It took a while to remove all the deposits from this screen.

-albertr

[Itsamoto]

I would pay extra attention to this metal mesh screen on the oil pick-up tube. On my AXK after cleaning it, I didn't notice how badly it was contaminated until I looked thru it to the light. It took a while to remove all the deposits from this screen.

-albertr

Yes good suggestion -- it was pretty filthy as well.

[Itsamoto]

The other parts of the engine that I cleaned up - included the valve cover, timing covers and the small front crank cover. I sanded them down as best as possible - but decided to add some engine paint to them as they still looked slightly pitted (tiny black specs).

I also took the time to replace the front and rear crank seals. I have read some posts that suggest that unless the crank oil seals are leaking - that they can be reused. However - its also very difficult to get the oil seals to go back onto any shaft properly. New seals come with a plastic insert that is tapered at one end and lets you slide the seal on without it folding up on itself. Its not impossible to put on without it - but it helps to keep the insert tool - it will come in handy if the lower timing cover has to be removed.

Main Rear Seals

L-R: Old seal damaged in removal, new seal with insert

Front Crank and Lower Timing Covers




Now these are the opposite of how it used to be on Lucille - where they were sludge-black on inside and aluminum on the outside. 

[Itsamoto]

Thermostat Housing and Coolant Hose


A while back we were discussing the apparent and noticeable increase in engine sludge in the Eurovan's AXK engine compared to the MK4 BDF. Both are 24v VR6 -- operating with largely the same oil-system components -- same oil filter and cooler, same oil pump (other than pick up length). Not to discredit the engine tilt difference (indicating a difference in oil flow), but one of the theories that I have on why the sludge is more prevelant in the Eurovan is due to the van's inadequate engine cooling (a difference in coolant flow). The oil build up on the AXK is so thoroughly bad - its almost as if it weren't being cooled at all. And despite similar coolant system components (same water pump, thermostat housing, after-run pump) -- the coolant lines are plumbed/routed very differently between the van and mk4 platforms. The van's corrosion prone radiator fan resistors are also a noteworthy factor, but for now let me share the problem as I see it with how the after run (or aux) coolant pump is connected.

To help the discussion, and to illustrate the coolant plumbing, I have posted the flow diagram from the Bentley here: http://www.cavevan.com/forum/index.php?topic=148.0. Even though its specified for 12v VR6, from my study its the 24v uses the same setup. This setup is also typical of all the VR6 vans, with front and rear heating cores and an automatic transmission.

The first thing to look at with the van is the location of the after-run coolant pump -- where it is placed on the recirculation line (radiator bypass line). Upstream of the pump, is a vacuum controlled valve that connects the recirculation line to the cold coolant supply line (from the radiator). When the engine is running, vacuum closes the valve -- when the engine is off, the valve opens. The operational theory is that when the van shuts down -- the after-run pump starts up and the vacuum valve opens -- which allows the pump to continue moving the recirculation line, while mixing in cold coolant from the supply line.

Vacuum Valve


The first problem with this is that using coolant from the recirculation line is that the coolant can actually be hot or not cooling down enough to reduce engine block heat. The problem is greater in warm weather when the heater cores are not used -- even the ATF "cooler" can be supplying hot coolant into the recirculation line. So even though the vacuum valve opens to begin mixing in cold coolant from the radiator -- its still primarily hot/heated coolant fluid being used to cool the engine block.

The second problem is that without any check valves in place (to direct flow) - the supply of coolant must overcome the weight of a lot of coolant in the system. Passing through the thermostat housing is also a problem. The aux pump can actually "dead head" itself and flow back through the open thermostat and back down the cold coolant supply line (reversing the flow). If this happens, then theoretically the after run coolant pump is not passing coolant through the radiator or the engine block.

Now the BDF coolant system works differently, and I would say much better. On the 24v VR6 engine block, there are two ports for coolant flow. One port is used to supply coolant to the oil cooler (which then returns into the crack pipe) -- this is same same on AXK and BDF. The second port - located right in the middle of the engine -- is used on the BDF as the inlet for the after run coolant pump! On the AXK, this port is capped off. So, instead of drafting off the recirculation line, the BDF's after run coolant pump drafts solely from the cold coolant supply line! It even has a check valve that prevents back flow when the engine is running (and coolant is being moved by the water pump).

BDF Coolant Pump

Mounts to engine block with bracket and has a check valve to prevent backflow.

Aux Coolant Pump on BDF

Supplies coolant directly into block -- this port not used on AXK


So obviously without a bunch of flow meters and temp senders to monitor and study different coolant system models -- this all just wild theory. I'm not trying to "out think the german engineers" -- but clearly the routing on the MK4 seems more effective (when gauging on internal oil build up). I speculate that the reason why the van's coolant plumbing didn't work so well - is that they just used the same setup from the 12v. The 12v setup (even on MK3/4) utilized the after-run coolant pump on the recirculation line and 12v block only had one coolant port (as opposed to the two on the 24v).

12v Block

One coolant port?

[Itsamoto]

Well my custom ordered clutch arrived earlier today. 

Custom 240mm Clutch Disc w/ 7/8" 28T spline



Fitment is pretty good on the flywheel -- although it would have to be used upside down. Seems that normally on these DMF, the long/tall side of the centre hub faces into the flywheel.

Custom Disc on 240mm DMF from BDF


Now for your amusment, here is the fitment of the 240mm DMF against the AFL transmission. Looks like it could actually fit if I were to grind out a few mm the interior of the bell-housing.

240mm DMF against AFL


Hmmm... Risk ultra-rare transmission inorder to clearance my custom disc investment? Hmmm...

[Itsamoto]

So in the pursuit of getting the VR6 single mass flywheel to work, I spent some time messing with the starter. My AFL kit came with a starter, but it doesn't have the right throw to reach the SMF flywheels' starter ring. The offset of the starter rings is different between SMF and DMF - with SMF's being approximately 10mm further inset. So, with just a dry fit, the AFL's starter would only allow for a couple of mm of pinion engagement -- and that's a recipe for having to open things up again. So instead, I went to the junk yard and pulled a VR6 starter off a 2001 12v-VR6 Jetta (uses the same SMF as what I'm toying with). These are pretty easy to work on and the parts are largely interchangeable with like models -- which the AFL's is.

Not knowing much about starters before I started working on this -- one of the most useful things videos I watched was on a breakdown of changing the brushes on a bosch starter. Excellent video -- and directly applicable to us EV owners.

LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJM2veUNBc0

Starters

From L-R: Lucille's 01P starter, 02G-AFL starter,  02J starter

Looking at this pic, I took Lucille's starter and practiced the disassembly months ago. I sanded down and repainted the case, which is why it looks in much better condition (although it was just as ugly as the others). Some 100-grit sand paper and a spray can of Rustoleum really do wonders for these.

Now for those who watched the video link, here's the great thing about these starters they are Bosch 110 and 125 series. Just like in the video, I had to sand down the crud to see properly that Lucille's original is a 110 series, and that the 02G and 02J starters were 125 series. Between the 110 and the 125 series, the brushes, brush holder and the top cap with bushing are all interchangeable. The internal armature and the housing are not.

Part numbers

L-R: 01P's 110 Series, 02G's 125 series (VW #02B911023D) , 02J's 125 series (VW# 02A911023S)

EDIT: Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission.

[Itsamoto]

So the idea to create a Frankenstein starter from the available parts - mostly the parts from the two 125 series starters. Combining the longer starter pinion from the 02J starter and the bracket from the 02G-AFL -- is the goal.

02G Starter Drive

10-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 28mm Gear OD, 81mm L

02G Starter Bracket

I haven't dug far enough to know if this starter bracket is the same for all the T4's with 02G transmissions.

02J Starter Pinion

9-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 25.7mm Gear OD, 90mm L

02J Starter Bracket


So the part numbers share in the previous post are for the entire starter assembly - but breaking the starer apart reveals component sub assemblies that can be ordered. So the starter driver for the 02G is actually Bosch 1-006-209-648, and the starter drive for the 02J's is 1-006-209-643. I had painstakingly measured these with my inferior tools and then once I google the part numbers found all the specs.

02M Starter Solenoid


One other thing that I really liked about the junk yard 02J starter -- was that the terminals on the starter solenoid were much better protected from corrosion. The car I pulled it from had been sitting outside - exposed to the elements - and looking rough. However, the solenoid terminals have some covering to them and looked good -- much better than Lucille's original 01P starter that got bit by the corrosion bug and started to fail. Semi-interestingly, the other Eurovan starters and solenoids are all stamped as Bosch-Germany (makes sense as all T4s come from Hannover) -- where as this 02J starter is from Pueblo and the starter is marked as Bosch-Mexico with the solenoid unmarked. Still, I like that it's protected the small spade connector with housings, as that was the main culprit when Lucille's starter failed. Could be a nice little upgrade so I kept the terminal plug.


EDIT: Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission.

[Itsamoto]

L-R: 02J starter parts, 02G starter parts, 01P starter parts. The key part in this picture is the 02G starter mounting bracket -- shown centre bottom


So the next step is to take it all apart. Now I had already disassembled Lucille's' starter - before watching the Westronics video (that I posted a link to in a previous post) -- and so I pulled the brush holder off of the commutator before realizing what a pain in the arse it is to put them back in. Each brush is held in place by a spring that keeps it tensioned to the commutator -- so it can be tricky to reassemble.  Knowing that (and having watched the Westronics vid) -- I knew better the second and third time around to leave the brush box on!

The big pain with taking these apart is the starter solenoid bolts -- some were held with red thread locker. Both the 125 series starter used a phillips head, and I stripped all of them and ended up having to extract/drill them all out. :mad: The single 110 series (from Lucille's 01P) used torx t-20/25 -- and came out just fine.

Although the brush boxes are compatible from the 110 and 125 series of starters -- the armatures are different. The 110 series is longer - longer armature, longer case. So really the only parts in play from the 01P starter are the brushes, and the case cap (w/bushing). The brushes from the 01P were actually in very good shape (almost new) - which makes me think Lucille may have had her starter rebuilt -- although the genuine-bosch parts sticker on the solenoid is also a clue.

01P Starter Brushes

Brushes are loose, but in excellent shape - probably within 80-90% of new size.


02G Starter Brushes

Brushes need replacement. 3 brushes with 50% left, one with less than 25%. Notice, gap in brush holder showing spring.

02J Starter Brushes

Brushes are very good shape - perhaps 75% of new. Springs are tight - noticeably much less brush wear than the other 02G.


And this is main reason I went the junk yard - to retrieve this starter drive pinion - used on manual 12v VR6s (which use a 228m clutch on a SMF). This is 9mm longer than the drive pinion on the 02G.

02J Starter Drive

Bosch PN# 1-006-209-643
Specs: 9-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 25.7mm Gear OD, 90mm L

Note, that it seems entirely possible to pull these drives ends off of the helical shaft (which is not a part of the drive assembly). The end of the drive shaft has a removable cap, under which a retaining clip holds the drive onto the helical shaft. It's a little more work that I need to do -- I can leave it together and swap all the parts as I am going from like starter models (125 to 125 series). If somebody were going from the 110 series to the 125, then I would need to pull the drive off as the armatures' drive pinion and its subsequent gearing are different between these two series of starters (not to mention that the number of splines on the helical shaft can be different too).

02G Starter Drive

Bosch PN# 1-006-209-648
Specs: 10-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 28mm Gear OD, 81mm L


With that in hand, I cleaned up the other internal components and assembled the rest with the pick of the litter between like components. The starter housing/case was sanded down and painted. One worthy note on this is that both the 125 starter housing had a lot of buildup and corrosion on the inside. There is a small opening along the top -- opposite to where the brush holder wiring exits -- that allows crud and moisture into the housing. So, I will need to future proof this with some sort of plug.

125 Series Starter interior corrosion


EDIT: Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission.

[Itsamoto]

Behold the Frankenstien starter! IT'S ALIVE!



For those keeping score I used the following components in creating this hideous creation. And yes, even parts from the 01P got used.

From the 02G:

• Starter mounting bracket
• Starter drive shaft bearing
• Solenoid to drive lift arm and rubber seal
• Armature Case

From the 02J:

• Starter Armature
• Brushes and holder
• Drive Pinion Assembly
• Unmarked starter solenoid

From the 01P:

• Case top with bearing (I was too lazy to re paint another of these)
• Solenoid mounting fasteners T-20/25 (only ones not stripped or drilled)
• Case mounting bolts (a mistake as you can see in the picture, they are a tad too long)

[Itsamoto]

Well I'm chalking up some of this experience to learning about fitting a starter. Not everything worked as smooth as I was hoping, but the franken-starter was a necessary step. Ideally the starter drives would have worked as planned -- but will show the oversight that has got me a bit stumped and looking at what options (other than shimming) are available.

Franken-starter mounted to 02G-AFL

Franken-starter too deep

At this depth, the starter pinion will stay engaged with the starter ring (which spans 32-42mm off the block) with engine running.  At this depth the pinion will also be bottoming out on the bell-housing -- although I'm not sure if this is a problem or not. Staying engaged is a big problem though -- and that won't do at all.

Franken-starter

Franken-starter lays defeated on a paper towel


So the premise behind the Franken-starter was to make up the ~10mm inward shift in flywheel starter ring depth on the SMF.  And I thought I had found the perfect solution in using the 02J starter...

Here is some of what it had going for it:

• Same Bosch starter model (125) as the 02G
• Pinion gear would mate properly with the flywheel (both for 12v Vr6)
• Pinion gear is longer -- 90mm vs the 81mm of the original driver pinion

At least on paper it seems like a winner, right?

Even when lining both starters up before taking everything apart -- the depth of retracted pinion looked to only be about 1-2mm longer with the 02J -- perfectly acceptable.Well what I did not calculate was that the starter mounting brackets were different sizes.

Starter Comparison

L-R: 02G Starter, 02J Starter

So by the tape, what made the difference:


02G starter:
Armature Case size: ~160mm
Bracket height: 34mm
Retracted Pinion Depth (from mounting surface): ~53mm
Throw: ~+10-12mm
Mounting height (02G): 101mm

02J starter:
Armature Case size: ~160mm
Bracket height: 44mm
Retracted Pinion Depth (from mounting surface): ~55mm
Throw: ~+10-12mm
Mounting height (02A): 97.5mm

So factoring in the 10mm difference in bracket mounting height, and the difference in mounting heights between the 02G and 02A (pressuming 02J is same), then the Franken-starter pinion would have had a net migration of being 13.5mm closer to the starter ring than it would do so if mounted to an 02A/02J transmission.

[Itsamoto]

Well finally some success with the fitting the starter -- and the answer was there all along. I must like to do things the hard way. 

After searching for a different, and more suitable starter drive - I found a good candidate: Bosch 1-006-209-657 -- which is listed as a 9T, CCW, 16sp, 11mm ID, 25.5mm Gear OD, 83mm L. This is 2mm longer than the stock 02G-AFL drive that came with my kit, and 7mm shorter than the 02J-starter drive. Theoretically, this would allow the starter pinion to engage close to (if not) 100% of the starter ring. Good to know. And searching for these pinion drives - Bosch doesn't make it easy - its all the starter parts suppliers (who are making knock-off parts) that have categorized and sorted everything.

Then researching starter shimming -- which seems much more common on GM's -- I read lots of opinion that the drive pinion really only needs to engage 66-75% of the flyhweel ring to work without damaging itself. And I thought, hey I can do that with original starter. So, with that in mind I went ahead and reverted the Franken-starter back to the original shorter pinion, bolted it up and applied 12v. Whats the worst that could happen, some nasty pinion mashing? Instead, it was pure butter. I had to double check to see if the crank was rotating is was so quite!

So as the very least, I learned something about starters, got some almost new brushes in place, and nicer starter solenoid out of the deal. Phew.

[Itsamoto]

Just about the only salvageable item from the garbage BDF that I acquired was the water pipe. I suppose an extra oil filter housing and after run coolant pump are ok - - but not sure it was worth that busted up transmission I traded away. At least the damaged block has allowed for me to mess around and test with the heavy fasteners, removing freeze plugs or whatever -- all with "no fear of damage". So I guess that was worth something.

Aluminum Water Pipe

Cleaned out -- sanded and then equipped with new o-rings

Evidently I don't really see how the plastic ones of these could fail before the thermostat housing - but I guess its plastic and can crack.

[Itsamoto]

Received a LUK VR6 clutch kit (LUK 17036) for Lucille. Rockauto -- cost was about 1/3 of what a local trans shop would sell it to me for. I would buy it local (even though it costs more) -- if wasn't for such a flagrant mark up. I'm obviously not in a rush, so I bit on the shipping and wait time.

LUK 17036 KIT