[Itsamoto]

Guys, does anyone knows how to find out the O.D. of the following crankshaft pulley - VAG P/N 03H105243Q ?
It's used on 2011 - 2013 Touareg with 3.6L V6 (which looks to be VR6 on steroids). I'm trying to see if I can get its 220Amps alternator implanted into EuroVan and need to calculate pulley's ratio.

-albertr

Is it the same as this: http://www.amazon.com/Porsche-Cayenne-Alternator-INA-F-235449/dp/B008POEOLY

[albertr]

I have INA F-235449 as it came on 220Amps Valeo alternator (received it tonight!) and I already measured its O.D. as 55.6mm  top of the ribs). Description says 61 mm, but 61mm is O.D. @ the top of the flange,  which is irrelevant.

I'm looking for O.D. of VAG 03H105243Q which is a crankshaft pulley from the same vehicle I got my 220Amps alternator from.
Need to check pulley ratio to make sure it's the same or close.

-albertr

[albertr]

Spoke to the local VW dealer today morning and was told that 03 H 105 243 Q was discontinued and there's no replacement number available. Interesting what owners of 2011 - 2014 Touareg with 3.6L VR6 will do if they need to replace their crankshaft pulley?

-albertr

[Itsamoto]

Spoke to the local VW dealer today morning and was told that 03 H 105 243 Q was discontinued and there's no replacement number available. Interesting what owners of 2011 - 2014 Touareg with 3.6L VR6 will do if they need to replace their crankshaft pulley?

-albertr

The crank pulley is virtually indestructible - but I think there are aftermarket fluid dampener pulleys for these engines. If you contact the mfg (INA engineering?)- they may be able to confirm the specs you are looking for.

Here's a thread on these pulleys from vortex: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5931012-***-INA-2-8-12V-2-8-3-2-24V-3-6-24V-VR6-FLUIDAMPR-Pulley-***

[albertr]

Thanks! Here's my thoughts - please feel free to correct if anything is wrong:

1. I found someone who measured the circumference of 3.6L VR6 crankshaft pulley (03 H 105 243 Q) as roughly 444 mm.
AXK crankshaft pulley has circumference of approx. 434 mm (measured it awhile ago, if I remember correctly), so it's a little bit smaller.  Itsamoto, did you have a chance to measure your AXK crankshaft pulley size too?
 
2. INA F-235449  (used on 220Amps Valeo alternator for 3.6L VR6)  has the same O.D. (55.6 - 55.9 mm) as INA F-557311 (closest match). AXK alternator pulley is a little bit larger @ approx. 60.8 mm O.D., but I'm sure that the belt tentioner should be able to compensate for that difference without using additional spacers.

3. So, here's the big question - what are idle RPMs on VW Touareg with 3.6L VR6? And assuming it's the same (650 RPMs) as EuroVan, would 220Amps Valeo alternator still get excited when its RPMs are reduced by 2.25% ?


I'm thinking that if idle RPMs of Touareg 3.6L VR6 turns out to be roughly the same as EuroVan's 2.8L VR6, than this 2.25% difference shouldn't matter and there's a good chance that  220Amps Valeo alternator paired with INA F-557311 pulley would work on EuroVan too.

However, if Touareg's idle RPMs turns out to be much higher (i.e. 800+), then we should go with a smaller pulley instead - i.e. INA F-239808 has O.D. of 50 mm. But in this case we will need to use some spacers to remove belt slack or find someone who can manufacture a shorter 7 ribs double-sided belt.

What do you think?

-albertr

[Itsamoto]

Looking at the AFL transmission, there was a lot of grime and build up on it that I have been working away at. Much of it can be sanded off by hand -- but there was a good amount of brake fluid in the clutch housing area. It looks wet in the picture -- only because I've been trying to degrease it slowly and scrub it out. Usually this is a sign that the throwout bearing is leaking fluid -- and so while I'm there it should be replaced. The 02G transmissions differ from the early vans - by use of a hydraulic throw out bearing, as opposed to the hydraulic  levered style. This is more in line with MK4 generation transmissions as well - but the mounting pattern of the throw out bearing seems unique to each.

AFL Transmission

Notice throw-out bearing in place

I pulled the bearing out and inspected it -- and it did show some evidence of leaking from the back. Because of this I decided to order a replacement - but the original design (which is the best quality IMHO) is no longer available. Some where along the line -- the design switched to a cast version of the housing (definitely cheaper to make with less parts). However, the best thing about the original bearing housing is that it can be completely disassembled and rebuilt with new seals. My problem is I can't find the seals anywhere - very hard. And even if I did find one the right size - its not necessarily properly rated for brake fluid and putting it back together without damaging a new seal also pretty tricky - the tolerances here are very exact.

Original throw-out bearing



Disassasmbled


Quality - machined housing


Even the bearing face was in very good shape.

So I ended up buying a cheap replacement - along with a bunch of other parts (that mostly don't fit  ). I've learned my lesson not buy this junk anymore, but I thought it was worth the little up-front investment to see these Chinese made replacement parts first hand. Logic kicked in - and I realized that I don't want this part to fail prematurely for a difference of $100 - that would be a waste of time/effort to pull the transmission off again. So I ponied up and bought the German-made LUK throw-out bearing.

Side by side, the cheapo is very much a replica of the LUK - but the visible difference is that the LUK version has machined surfaces, where as the Chinese does not. Its actually not a big deal on the surfacse that I'm showing below - but if thats the same case on the inside, then I can only speculate that will lead to leaking fluid much faster.

AFL Throw-out bearings

From L-R: Original OEM, Cheapo, LUK


Side by side -- castings are identical in dimension.

Chinese version

Sorry for lousy picture

LUK machined surfaces

[Itsamoto]

Thanks! Here's my thoughts - please feel free to correct if anything is wrong:

1. I found someone who measured the circumference of 3.6L VR6 crankshaft pulley (03 H 105 243 Q) as roughly 444 mm.
AXK crankshaft pulley has circumference of approx. 434 mm (measured it awhile ago, if I remember correctly), so it's a little bit smaller.  Itsamoto, did you have a chance to measure your AXK crankshaft pulley size too?
 
2. INA F-235449  (used on 220Amps Valeo alternator for 3.6L VR6)  has the same O.D. (55.6 - 55.9 mm) as INA F-557311 (closest match). AXK alternator pulley is a little bit larger @ approx. 60.8 mm O.D., but I'm sure that the belt tentioner should be able to compensate for that difference without using additional spacers.

3. So, here's the big question - what are idle RPMs on VW Touareg with 3.6L VR6? And assuming it's the same (650 RPMs) as EuroVan, would 220Amps Valeo alternator still get excited when its RPMs are reduced by 2.25% ?


I'm thinking that if idle RPMs of Touareg 3.6L VR6 turns out to be roughly the same as EuroVan's 2.8L VR6, than this 2.25% difference shouldn't matter and there's a good chance that  220Amps Valeo alternator paired with INA F-557311 pulley would work on EuroVan too.

However, if Touareg's idle RPMs turns out to be much higher (i.e. 800+), then we should go with a smaller pulley instead - i.e. INA F-239808 has O.D. of 50 mm. But in this case we will need to use some spacers to remove belt slack or find someone who can manufacture a shorter 7 ribs double-sided belt.

What do you think?

-albertr

Really out of my depth to suggest otherwise -- I wouldn't haven considered some of these things . I think that the pulley you found is best replacement, however the difference in OD size and the amount of slack that the tension can absorb are things I think need to be tried to figure out. Obviously if the belt is too loose (due to smaller pulley) - there is a danger there of the belt coming off. So, it might be worth looking at BDF belt as well - its a little shorter than the AXK belt was (and a little thinner too).

[albertr]

Thanks, Itsamoto. Don't want to hijack your conversion project - I'll move pulley/alternator discussion to the following thread:

http://www.cavevan.com/forum/index.php?topic=24.0

-albertr

[Itsamoto]

Here is what I got from my kit for the hydraulic line. I put the throw-out bearing housing there as well to see the whole line (minus the master clutch cylinder).


02G Clutch Hydraulic Lines


Now from what I gather, looking at ETKA diagrams and what not -- it looks like I have an extra line included here (the long twisty line shown centre bottom). Otherwise, starting from the bottom right corner, going counter clockwise, the items are:

Pressure pipe 701721461E (goes from clutch master cylinder and passes through firewall) -- has the firewall pass grommet on it.

The top line shown here is actually an assembly of different parts as well.

There is an T connection housing(701721451A), that receives the first pressure pipe line. This T-junction also has bleed valve on it. Looking at ETKA -- this appears to be an optional fitting. From here a short run of pressure pipe (701721462A) connects into a black coupler (no part number) and then to a long pressure line with a flexible portion. This pressure pipe is a variation of part number 7D1721477D - -but which variation probably depends on your transaxle's code.  That line then connects to a coupler - shown top left -- that connects the pressure line assembly to the clutch slave cylinder.

[Itsamoto]

Clutch woes -- need some advice.

Well I'm running up against a bit of wall with the clutch plans, and was hoping to get some sound advice from the forum.

Basically, there are two different standards of input shaft spline on the VR6 transmissions and clutch discs must match -- these standards are 7/8" 28 tooth (sometimes called 22mm or 11/16"), and 15/16" 23 tooth (24mm). Seems that all 12v VR6s (including the Eurovan AFL transmission) are all 7/8"-28T  -- while the 24v VR6 are 15/16"-23T. Interestingly though, the Eurovan is on a DMF, while all the other 12v are SMF - 24v is DMF.

The crux is that I've been hoping to use the dual mass flywheel and pressure plate that I have from the GLI -- they are in great condition and this would upgrade the clutch to a stout 240mm (vs 219mm spec). To use this setup requires a custom made 7/8"-28t clutch disc to match the transmission. So currently I have long-outstanding order with vendor (whom I will not name) for a custom disc - but I have some doubts that this is going to be delieverd and must consider other options. Delivery has gone from 2 weeks, then to 1 month and now we're at 2 months - with all sorts of BS as well.

So, here are the options as I see them...

1. Find another vendor capable of making the 240mm disc w/ 7/8" 28T spline

PRO: Upgrades to 240mm and retains using the DMF flywheel and pressure plate (of which I have 2 sets on hand).
CON: Custom order required ($$$). Still may not fit in the trans housing when all bolted up. [/s][/color]

2. Import spec AFL components: NEW 219mm clutch disc and NEW pressure plate

PRO: Spec fit (for 12v)
CON: Items must be imported. Re-uses original flywheel (very rare). Possible issues dealing with higher output of 24v?

3. Use a 12v VR6 Clutch kit: NEW SMF flywheel and pressure plate, NEW 228mm clutch disc

PRO: Lots of choice, easily available and cheaper. Upgrades to 228mm
CON: SMF could induce wear on an already used and rare transmission. Possible issues dealing with higher output of 24v?


Thoughts and ideas?

[albertr]

Sorry, Itsamoto, I wish I can contribute, but don't know much about it... Hopefully, somebody else can chime in.

-albertr

[Itsamoto]

Now I expected there to be some trial and error with this "build" -- as I'm trying out different parts and combinations -- however this one is pretty stupid on my part. 

After doing a dry fit of the 240mm BDF clutch -- this time mounted to the motor. It does not fit inside the bell housing. 

My mistake was that I had previously test fitted the clutch by holding it up to the AFL and checking the clearance. It looked good, just as tight as the spec unit --- but I was just tilting the unit into the housing - not lining it up squarely. Turns out the AFL bell housing throat isn't a perfect circle -- instead it has a couple of small flat spots in it which become a show stopper. Visually the 2400m unit looked the same size as the 219mm spec clutch (but I should have measured it more carefully because it's actually about 4mm larger).

Guess I needn't get all hung up over that custom clutch disc that I will soon be throwing in the garbage. 

[greaseworks]

Clutch woes -- need some advice.

3. Use a 12v VR6 Clutch kit: NEW SMF flywheel and pressure plate, NEW 228mm clutch disc

PRO: Lots of choice, easily available and cheaper. Upgrades to 228mm
CON: SMF could induce wear on an already used and rare transmission. Possible issues dealing with higher output of 24v?

Perhaps this is a moot point now with your recent 240mm no-go discovery, but what exactly do you mean by "could reduce wear on an already used and rare transmission"?  The DMF is inherently "softer" under foot (ie clutch pedal) than SMF options. The DMF is also weaker and prone to failure with higher output engines. This may sound counter intuitive but the first big mod necessary on a high torque TDI eng build is to ditch the DMF setup and use a SMF setup which can handle the 300+ ft/lbs torque levels no prob.

Does the Trans really care about the type of clutch/flywheel? Not that I know of, when the clutch isn't depressed the eng/trans are linked together. I can see the logic that with the DMF there is some rubber dampening the eng pulses but I've heard nothing regarding inherent problems with the age old single mass flywheel clutch system in this regard.   Remember instead of squishy runner there are springy springs dampening. 

The useage and adoption by VW of DMFs is mostly for the "smoothness" and feel not for prolonged tranny life.  I think if they really cared about that they would have had a different AT oil/filter change interval :-).

Justin


2000 EVW 5-spd TDI

[greaseworks]

squishy rubber!


2000 EVW 5-spd TDI

[Itsamoto]

Perhaps this is a moot point now with your recent 240mm no-go discovery, but what exactly do you mean by "could reduce wear on an already used and rare transmission"?  The DMF is inherently "softer" under foot (ie clutch pedal) than SMF options. The DMF is also weaker and prone to failure with higher output engines. This may sound counter intuitive but the first big mod necessary on a high torque TDI eng build is to ditch the DMF setup and use a SMF setup which can handle the 300+ ft/lbs torque levels no prob.

Does the Trans really care about the type of clutch/flywheel? Not that I know of, when the clutch isn't depressed the eng/trans are linked together. I can see the logic that with the DMF there is some rubber dampening the eng pulses but I've heard nothing regarding inherent problems with the age old single mass flywheel clutch system in this regard.   Remember instead of squishy runner there are springy springs dampening. 

The useage and adoption by VW of DMFs is mostly for the "smoothness" and feel not for prolonged tranny life.  I think if they really cared about that they would have had a different AT oil/filter change interval :-).

The transmission cares about what clutch it has in only in affect that it will fit in the bell housing. 

From what I've researched, it seems that the biggest redeaming quality of the DMF is that it dampens the amount of engine vibration transferred into the transmission. Whether or not that saves transmissions, I do not know - I'm only thinking of that as a benefit. I thought for sure that the the 240mm unit was good for higher power (with DMF being on newer engines). The junk BDF that I traded for was boosted and running on the stock DMF clutch as well.

As for SMF - I always thought that rougher hurky-jerky engagement (letting the clutch out without being properly rev matched) was hard on the transmission internals and thus shortened the transmission lifespan. Where as the DMF sort of quells or corrects for that sort of "poor" shifting. Not that I intend to drive that way.