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Offline BobB

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2015, 07:46:25 am »
42pvan - Thanks - We should "sticky" those definitions somewhere so we are all using the same language!

albertr - saw photos elsewhere here of your battery setup - looking forward to a full review/description.

Drotblatt - The site xochi.com/evc/battery-charger/ was posted over on the Yahoo EVC group, but link now fails.  It goes through a review of the Promariner.  I have attached a pdf copy I saved a long time ago for your reference.  Electricity is not my strong suit  - Do not know if author is on this site, but recommend finding out (maybe log/join Yahoo EVC group) and contacting him for any updates. 

Still have plans to upgrade my converter to a PDI per David, then see about new battery.  Don't think an inverter required at this time.  Phones, tablet and laptop can all be charged directly on 12V.  No TV, microwaves or coffeemaker. Keeping it simple.  Some point in future is new fridge, but when we dry camp we use old fashioned cooler (Engel) with ice. A block can last several days.
BobB
'99 VW EVC

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Offline albertr

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2015, 08:40:42 am »
I've just published the review of my solar panels setup: http://www.iral.com/~albertr/EVC/solar/solar.html

Will try to publish review of my battery/charger later today.

-albertr

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Offline albertr

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2015, 10:41:37 am »
Sorry about delay, here's writeup on my battery/charger setup: http://www.iral.com/~albertr/EVC/battery/battery.html
Let me know if there're any questions.

-albertr

Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2015, 03:08:58 am »
42pvan...thanks, a good explanation.  Question: if the norcold fridge is on (drawing 10 amps as you said), and the smart charger then thinks the battery is low and tries to charge it, is that a bad thing?  Isn't it just helping to run the fridge, or will it put out too much power and overcharge the battery as well?

Bob...I don't have trouble with the link to xochi.com.  Here it is:
http://xochi.com/evc/battery-charger/
http://xochi.com/evc/ works as well, but Xochi.com does not have any links to the evc section.  The owner has probably changed his website and deleted the links.

albertr...I look forward to checking out the info on the solar as well as charger!
Dan
'Millie', a '95 EVC

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Offline 42pvan

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2015, 06:37:19 am »
DRotblatt... I'm not entirely sure what the Norcold actually draws but 10 amps seems about right as it has 20 amp fuses and the fridge uses heat to run. The smart chargers have 3-4 stages. For drained batteries they charge at >14.8V for rapid charging. When the battery gets close to full, the charger reduces voltage to 14.1-14.8V to complete the charge. After charging is complete, the charger reduces voltage to 13.0-13.8V to just maintain the charge. A fourth stage is on some chargers that, after charging is complete and it has been in the third stage for several days, increases voltage to >14.8V for a short period (a few minutes) to increase temperature of the acid in the battery so that the water moves around to prevent stratification and remove accumulated sulfate in the cells. So is it a bad thing to overcharge the battery? For short periods of time, no, it is really a good thing. If overcharged for too long though, you can ruin a battery by boiling off the acid and exposing the cells to air.

This is all for typical lead-acid batteries, and I'm not familiar enough with other battery types to say anything about those but I believe the process is similar.


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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2015, 12:12:45 pm »
Thanks!

I looked up the amperage of the Norcold; it pulls 11.5-15 amps (page 2):
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/817849/14776484/1319418046177/3163service_manual.pdf?token=aNr7X8d%2FTWxtMXcVgHDXs06tdVU%3D

I guess the question is if the fridge is running, and it trips on the charger, how much power is it putting out vs what the fridge is pulling?  At some point I'll change the fridge, so it won't matter.  Until then, I guess the answer is to carry some distilled water and check the battery periodically to make sure there is no boil off of the fluid.

BTW: i have Lead Acid batteries - just bought two Interstate 6V golf cart batteries from Costco the other day.  Will be installing them over the next two weeks.
Dan
'Millie', a '95 EVC

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Offline John

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2015, 10:49:43 pm »
I went with a fairly simple approach, which may or may not work for others.  We bought an 80 watt Sunforce panel on Amazon a few years ago on a whim.  As luck would have it, the panel fit the width of the EVC perfectly.  I spent many months trying to figure out how to mount it without putting holes in my roof.  A friend helped fashion some brackets that we attached to the side of the roof without going through the roof.  I opted for a permanent mount and sacrificed optimal sun positioning so as not to hassle with kids and dogs knocking over the panel.  Plus, again as luck would have it, the skylight in my garage is positioned right over the panel, so I actually get a charged while parked.  (Living in the sunny Southwest helps.)

Also, while there are certainly advantages to the higher quality controllers, I went with a $20-$25 Sunforce controller that seems to work just fine.  Also opted to run the wires along the outside of the rear hatch to under the battery compartment then up through an existing hole the previous owner put in for a since-removed rear view camera.  Again, wanted to avoid any holes.

While this simple set up may not be for everyone, I've found it to be a trouble- and hassle-free design that didn't break the bank.  The house battery is always charged -- I only plug into shore power the night before a trip to cool the fridge -- and I never have to set up or move the panel.

Happy camping,
John

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Offline BobB

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2015, 01:17:07 pm »
Was looking at the PDI charger David recommended, but - as others have noted - the area where the Magnatek has water lines, etc.   Since I do not want to get into relocation of the charger, I am thinking a "waterproof" marine charger, like the ProMariner might be best.

The ProMariner Prosport 12 dual battery charger comes highly recommended.  So my questions are:

1.  I am not going to include my engine battery in this upgrade - going to keep house systems separate from VW. - Will dual charger still work?  I assume you just don't use the extra terminals?

2.  How much charger amps? and what are real-world implications of different charging amps - time to charge the battery?  Magnatek is 20A, PDI recommended by David is 45A, Promariner recommended is 12A.  Or could go with their 20A one.

Any help appreciated.  FYI - I am not electrically inclined. 

BobB
'99 VW EVC

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Offline albertr

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2015, 03:55:23 pm »
One thing to mention when charging the batteries - the max current batteries can absorb during bulk charging. I went with 50A charger because AGM batteries can take alot of current. If you are to use some other type of batteries you might want to take a look at that.

-albertr

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Offline BobB

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2015, 04:18:13 pm »
Right now I have an old flooded battery  Thinking of getting a high quality AGM, like Lifeline, but probably not a really big battery; just the size to replace the one in the original box for now. 

So keep it at 20A and under?

I did notice you have something like a 300AH bank + you upgraded to a 30 Amp plug?  I am still using original 15 amp.
BobB
'99 VW EVC

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Offline albertr

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2015, 07:39:25 pm »
Well, 120V*15A/14.3V=125A! Imho, much more than I need to charge my batteries. I did upgrade to a 30A shoreline socket, but that was not because I needed 30A AC, but rather because my Winnebago socket was rusted out and I had to replace it.
Here's a short writeup on my shoreline socket saga:

http://www.iral.com/~albertr/EVC/rust/shorelinesocket.html


The replacement I found in stainless steel was rated for 30A AC. I don't really need that much, but this Furrion socket looked nice.

I would check with your battery manufacturer on  max current your battery can take... it would help to spec out the charger.

-albertr

« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 08:33:35 am by albertr »

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Offline 42pvan

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2015, 09:12:02 pm »
I have a ProMariner dual battery 20amp. I happen to have it wired to both the starter and house batteries but when I first put it in I only had it connected to the house battery and it works fine. You need to hook both sets of wires on the ProMariner to your house battery. If you just leave the extras unhooked the charger won't work because it first checks to make sure it is connected properly to good batteries.
With a good charger, I believe that a high amperage won't hurt your battery. The only problem is when the charger continues to supply high current when the battery is close to fully charged. A general sort of rule of thumb is that your charge current should not exceed your rated amp hours divided by 5. For my set up, with 225 amp hours I would not want to go above 45 amps (225/5). Some also recommend to divide by 10 rather than 5 so I should not exceed 22.5 amps. I think you would be fine to stay within these guidelines as long as you get a good 3 or 4 stage charger. More amps equals shorter charge times, and less amps increases charge time.


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Offline BobB

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2015, 07:46:06 am »
Have not yet selected a battery, but for looked up info in Lifeline Technical Manual.  They state "Due to the low impedance design, Lifeline batteries can tolerate in-rush current levels as high as 5C (500A for a 100Ah battery)"

This agrees with some other info I found that charging rate for flooded cell batteries is 8C or 10C and AGM's (like Lifeline) are 5C.

So I will do my homework - figure out my energy needs, select a battery (probably AGM), read the manufacturer's technical literature on charging,  and then choose the charger.

Thanks for advice.
BobB
'99 VW EVC

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Offline BobB

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Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2015, 04:52:07 pm »
Well, I did my homework.

Calculated my energy needs and came up with 2 basic scenarios, with and without a 12v fridge. 

In all scenarios - Electric water pump runs sparingly and a 12v fan running all night.  We currently do not have a 12v fridge, but use an Engel ice chest and it serves our needs for now.  All our lights are now LEDs, and our iPhones, tablets can be charged about every 3rd day.  We carry enough camera rechargeable batteries to last 2 weeks until we hook up to 110v.  No inverter needed at this time.  No microwave, no TV, no stereo running all the time.

Without refrigeration - 10 AH/day
   
With (future) refrigeration - 30AH/day
   I assumed a 2.5A 12v fridge like a Truckfridge with a duty cycle of 8 hours per day.

Other assumptions / guesses
I don’t want to rip the entire back out. So the existing battery box stays for now.  Current battery is 13”x7”x9+” high (could fit 10”)

If i am going to spend money it will be a high quality battery.  Several Lifeline AGMs fit this space but I am thinking of the GPL-31XT with a 20 hours rate of 125AH. Might as get get most AH I can.

I think this will be fine for the Without Refrigeration scenario.  We generally stay only 2-3 days at one place, driving around during the day and then on to the next place, so I figure that should be enough charging, if we don’t plug in.   Obviously, with a fridge, the load really means I need to plug in more often or I might get solar for additional energy input. OR bigger battery bank.  Fridge is off a bit for now, $ wise.

GPL-31XT Charging Instructions and Voltages:
Bulk Charge Voltages: 14.20 - 14.60v
Absorption Charge Voltages: 14.20 - 14.60volts
Float Charge Voltages: 13.10 - 13.40v
The GPL-31XT is designed for charging amperages up to 312.5 amps or 250% of the rated Amp Hour Capacity due to low battery internal resistance.

So which charger?

I was looking at the Prosport Gen3 chargers and the PDI 9200 series, that others have put into their EVC and been happy with.  Also within budget.  However, I noticed they have 2 very different charging profiles:

Prosport (profile for Flooded and AGM the same)
ProSport Charging: During this mode the “Charging” indicator will be red. ProSport will use all of its available charging amps (as controlled by temperature) until the battery voltage is raised to 14.6VDC (Flooded lead-acid factory setting).

ProSport Conditioning: During this mode the “Conditioning” status indicator will be amber. Batteries will hold at 14.6 VDC (factory set for Flooded lead-acid batteries) to complete charging while conditioning each battery connected. Upon completion the ProSport will go into its maintain mode.

ProSport Ready / Maintain: During this mode the “Ready/Maintain” status indicator will be green and remain on with the blue “power” LED indicating that your batteries are fully charged while being maintained at a precision 13.4 volts (factory set for Flooded lead-acid batteries) and are ready to go when you are.

ProSport Storage Recondition Mode: During this mode the ProSport “Recondition Mode” green indicator will illuminate with a slow fade in and out pulse indicating that while your batteries/boat are in storage the ProSport will automatically recondition all batteries for up to 3 hours once a month extending battery life and maximizing on the water battery power performance.

PDI 9200 Series

14.4 Volts (Boost Mode) – Returned the battery to 90% of full charge in approximately 8 hours. The battery reached full charge in approximately 11 hours.

13.6 Volts (Normal Mode) – Required 40 hours to return the battery to 90% of full charge and 78 hours to reach full charge.

13.2 Volts (Storage Mode) – Required 60 hours to return the battery to 90% of full charge and 100 hours to reach full charge.

EQUALIZATION MODE: When in storage mode the microprocessor automatically increases the output voltage to 14.4 volts for 15 minutes every 21 hours. This will help to reduce the buildup of sulfation on the battery plates.

Is PDI “Normal” the same as Prosport “Conditioning”? If so, how will the lower PDI "normal" charge of 13.6 affect the batteries?

Any advice will be appreciated.
BobB
'99 VW EVC

Re: Winnebago AUX/house battery, solar thread.
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2015, 10:12:47 pm »
Bob…I got the progressive dynamics PD9245CV, but haven't installed it yet.  But can't answer your questions, I'm just assuming they would both work well, and this one worked for 42pvan (?).

FYI, I just put in two 6v golf batteries side by side (Costco, about 240AH).  Very little modification to car.  Had to cut one aluminum brace form the inside of the cover and replace with steel 1/8" flat bar, but otherwise fit where old battery is and leaves an inch or two more for storage then the old box.  There was some modification to the battery box to add vent, drain and allow the top to fit.  I'll be doing a write-up with pics after I get back from Central Calif trip (leaving tomorrow).

Excuse all the tools and crap in the pics...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 10:26:34 pm by DRotblatt »
Dan
'Millie', a '95 EVC