CaveVan Forum
VW T4 "Eurovans" => Inline 5cyl Petrol engine tech => Topic started by: Cole on June 08, 2015, 07:32:22 pm
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I've read a few accounts of the I5 in these vans being turbo charged.
Seems fairly simple since the Audis came with a variation of this engine with a turbo! Both in 10v and 20v configurations.
The Audi guys actually like to use the EV cranks to build larger displacement stroker engines.
I've seen the cars put out upwards of 1,100hp (not a typo :o)
Seems that a very mild 200-250hp set up would make a huge difference on the Eurovan!
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As a diehard turbo guy I have thought about this many times. The conclusion I have come to that if I am going to go to that effort I might as well go TDI and be done with it. I think the TDI better fits the use of our EVC. Now if I had a sweet eurovan like one of yours that I was going a little more street with I think a 250 hp 5 cyl 5 speed would be a very fun ride.
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Unfortunately not everyone can do a TDI swap based just on local emmisons laws.
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I live I the great state of Michigan where we can register anything and emissions don't exist. I have a small fleet of Frankenstein cars. The guys at the part shops always want make and model and I have to try to think what that part of the car is originally from. I sold a Dodge Rampage and gave the guy a list of what to tell the parts store he was working on in order to get the right parts. He had 5 different yodels depending on what he was working on.
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Well, I had a nice 1993 Eurovan Westfalia fall in my lap that I'm considering keeping as a CaveVan test bed van. What to do, what to do? :o
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Well, I had a nice 1993 Eurovan Westfalia fall in my lap that I'm considering keeping as a CaveVan test bed van. What to do, what to do? :o
Obviously go turbo and show us all how to do it... ;D
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I've thought about that some myself. Also interested in a possible turbo LPG kit. Though getting it licensed here is a challenge.
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Just to be clear "turbo" and "LPG" are independent things. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a "turbo LPG kit" but I'm assuming you meant you want to add a turbo to your eng as well as an LPG sys?
Years back I built a LPG fumigation system on my old TDI Vanagon Westy. The results were overall good but not earth shattering. More like a minor after-booster switch you can switch on when you need a lil more juice.
Power was noticeably better with no noticeable effect on EGTs when the LPG was switched on; fuel burn was a little cleaner, less smoke and less downshifting when climbing in the mnts (4-spd with tall 3/4). Overall MPGs bumped up 1-2 mpg but this was somewhat offset by the addtl. cost of LPG in terms of overall cost savings. As my old friend Keeder would say "the only free cheese is in the mousetrap!"
Keep in mind all of this was with a 1.9TDI engine and I'm not sure if my results would be the same with a gas engine. I could see building another LPG sys for my EVW when/if I mount a permanent LPG tank on it.
Viel Späß,
Justin
2000 EVW 5-spd TDI
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Just to add on to Justin's comments.
I had a LPG "dual fuel" set up on my petrol powered Dodge pickup. LPG makes a lot of sense in places where LPG is super cheap. Unfortunately that is not the case in 99% of the USA.
The Dodge was used as an "oil field" truck before I bought it and I'm sure the previous owner had access to cheap LPG. The engine was spotless inside with 240k on it. LPG burns nice and clean.
When I got it the dual fuel set up went unused due to the cost of LPG.
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Ok that's a different thing entirely than what I (perhaps mistakenly) thought Kamprknut was talking about. A dual fuel engine that runs on gasoline OR LPG vs what I was referring to "LPG fumigation" ie, "fogging" or "fumigating" LPG into the intake air of the eng as a way to boost power output. This is controlled via a simple LPG rates solenoid valve, regulator, and a simple orifice port that controls the total # of BTUs of LPG being fogged into the air intake. There are several redundant "fail safe" features that are built into the sys to avoid dangerous situations (ie, accident eng stalls and LPG is still flowing, etc) but I guess this Turbo thread has been hacked enough so I'll leave it at that.
Back to turbos: So who wants to be the bold pioneer and do the legwork to research, purchase, fit and finish, drive and report on this? Specifically a 2.5l 5cyl gas eng.
2000 EVW 5-spd TDI
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I'm sorry for creating the confusion. What I meant to say is that I was looking at both a turbo upgrade and or conversion to LPG. Probably both out of my skill set for a first time job. Interested to see where this goes.
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Well, I seem to have a "spare" 1993 Eurovan Westfalia at the moment that might make a good candidate to play with. ;).....also needs syncro.
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Here is an aftermarket kit for the 20 valve Audi 5 cylinder. http://store.034motorsport.com/turbo-kit-7a-audi-20v-5-cylinder.html
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I am considering turbocharging my '93 weekender. However, I think 150-200hp is a better goal. I completely understand where Cole is coming from as I made a road trip this last summer which included several Rocky Mountain passes. We made it atop Pikes Peak with calculated 65hp at that altutide. A normally aspirated 24v would be down to about 120hp from its peak hp. I've accumulated most of the hardware from other turbo VW's. How many others out there are interested?
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Now i like the sound of turbo charging this engine. The problem though is with the digifant injection. I don't think there are many options to remap it.
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Realistically how often are folks running their VR6 engines at the rpm range where they reach peak hp? Iirc this is around 4500rpm and the TCM won't let you spend much time up that high. Best to look at the VR6 power band graph for real world power #s.
2000 EVW 5-spd TDI
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Realistically how often are folks running their VR6 engines at the rpm range where they reach peak hp? Iirc this is around 4500rpm and the TCM won't let you spend much time up that high. Best to look at the VR6 power band graph for real world power #s.
2000 EVW 5-spd TDI
You might be surprised here in Colorado. The average weekend trip to the mountains includes many long climbs and operation around. 11,000ft.
The speed limit is upwards of 75mph on those roads.
Load the van up with 5 passengers and gear and it takes quite a bit to keep up with traffic.
I've had several vehicles that have required essentially redline operation just to hold the 7 mile 60mph climb from Silverthorn to the Eisenhower Tunnel at 11,158'.
Often times it can kinda be an all or nothing climb too. Get out of the peak power and you may find that you can never get back above 40mph. Which can be VERY dangerous on those roads.
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Did anyone try to use a newer incarnations of VR6's (i.e. 3.6L VR6 from VW Touareg) in their EV?
-albertr
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Did anyone try to use a newer incarnations of VR6's (i.e. 3.6L VR6 from VW Touareg) in their EV?
-albertr
I've looked into it.
Your best bet is a 3.2L. It's as close as you are going to get to a direct drop in replacement for the 2.8L 24v
None of that really helps the 5cyl vans though.
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As far as digifant reprogramming I'm planning to go another route. I'll be adding a couple of additional injectors for fuel and likely adding 92 octane fuel for detention prevention. The turbo will be a hybrid of a Passat compressor (in line engine) and a Jetta turbine (transverse engine). These small k03 turbos are rated for 180hp at stock boost levels which should be just fine in a currently underpowered 93' weekender. I'm looking forward to the boost in torque and the less frequent downshifts. In theory I could see a slight uptick in MPG if I can keep my foot out of it and minimize the time in boost. The factory air box will be replaced by a intercooler from a Jetta. A cone style air filter will easily fit on the drivers side behind the headlight.
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I've used the K03 turbos on a variety of off stock applications (Vanagon/Eurovan) at a variety of power levels with 4cyl AHU/1Z engines and the limiting factor that you quickly run into is high EGTs at higher loads/revs. In fact even the common upgraded version of this turbo the K03/04 hybrid is still limiting with regards to egts when under load.
They do work quite well on the vehicles they came stock on, but keep in mind the extra weight and aerodynamics of the EV.
Justin
2000 EVW 5-spd TDI
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Justin,
You are still talking diesels here. The rest of this discussion is on the gas motor.
Just need to make sure we keep them separate for clarity ;D
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That's true good point. But my main point is still valid: it's important to size the turbo to the size of the vehicle/eng. True I've never run a k03 turbo on a 5cyl gas EV but I'm just offering what I do know well and have real world experience with to hopefully help steer the consideration in a way that minimizes wheel spinning fantasy and maximizes power to the wheels actualization :-).
EGTs should be at the top of anybodies list of concerns entering turbo land and especially when considering turbo charging a formally normally aspirated eng.
2000 EVW 5-spd TDI
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Great point on the EGT's. What temps range do you like to see? Measured before or after turbo? I agree a long pull under boost at higher rpm's could see a spike. I figured the horsepower goals I was looking for would come at a lower RPM point compared to the 1.8t motor and that's fine as the 2.5 isn't really a revver in the Eurovan. :)
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The general rule of thumb on VWs with aluminum alloy heads and pistons is to keep it below 1250* F max pre-turbine. This is considered a safe max temp. Post turbine #s are too variable and not recommended.
2000 EVW 5-spd TDI
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I've been into turbo cars forever and I've never seen anyone even mention the issue of EGTs on a gasoline engine, but I see it all the time on diesel engines.
I've tried to find a good reason why but find nothing but speculation.(anyone have a good link? ) Essentially, is seems it's just not enough of an issue to to worry about. Especially at the boost levels you would be running on this 2.5L in the Eurovan.
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Justin, thanks for the info about the EGT's. I agree with Cole that gas turbos don't seem to see this as diesels do. Perhaps with the slower combustion of diesel as some of the fuel continues to burn past the exhaust valve as it is pushed down to the turbo. However, with the 5cyl issue with cracking manifolds, the EGT's are still important. The way to find out is to do it. I'll be adding a vacuum/boost, EGT, and fuel mixture gauges. I have oil temp, oil pressure, and coolant temp gauges too but that may make it look too much like a cockpit?
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A turbo AAF inline 5 gas engine is interesting to me. First things first: does anyone have any candidate I5 manifolds from other engines that would bolt up to the AAF?
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There is some rumor that the 2.5TDI manifold may work
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what about the audi K24 turbo? that came on the 2.2 audi motor and built boost by 2000rpm so would be even sooner with the 2.5l...... for fuel regulate to 5 psi or so and add a FMU?
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Resurrecting this to mention that the UK guys that swapped 1.8Ts mated to their stock transaxles found themselves destroying gears after about 200hp. So I think any 'real power' upgrade has to be considered in tandem with transaxle upgrade.